Stop sign enforcement in Old Town

[Zack]

APD just kicked off a dedicated enforcement effort for at least 60 days targeting cyclists, pedestrians and drivers equally. They plan to reassess at 60 days and may extend it 30 more. According to the head of the motors unit, officers are looking to warn or ticket cyclists who do not slow down for stop signs. They are not looking for a complete stop with a foot down but do want to see cyclists slow down, yield to pedestrians in the crosswalk and cars entering the intersection or stopped first. APD does understand about clips and does not expect those cyclists to completely stop so long as they yield to pedestrians and cars with the right of way. Expect motorcycle officers along the Old Town/Union St corridor as well as Del Ray/Commonwealth corridor although they do want to cover the entire city.

On Monday morning, I saw one officer on sitting a motorcycle at E Del Ray Ave and Commonwealth. I slowed down with another cyclist for that stop sign and the officer did not move. A lot of the officers do not particularly like ticketing cyclists but if a cyclist is rude or defensive, they are more likely to write a ticket than a warning.

While I appreciate that APD appears to understand that nuance between a stop and complete stop, I am not sure targeting pedestrians, cyclists and drivers equally is the best policy, especially given that one group is the predominant cause of injuries and death. APD operates on a complaints driven model and the majority of an unknown number of complaints do eminent from the Union St corridor.

[Rootchopper]

“Equally?” Thanks. I needed a laugh this morning.

In the past I have been pulled over for rolling through a stop sign at 3 miles per hour (I was clipped in) and given a 5 minute lecture by an APD officer. It was at Union and King at a time when no one else was within 20 feet of the intersection. The APD officer’s rant was totally obnoxious and unnecessary. Expect the same.

[dasgeh]

@Zack 146309 wrote:

APD just kicked off a dedicated enforcement effort for at least 60 days targeting cyclists, pedestrians and drivers equally.

Thanks for the update. While it’s not where I would hope the police would be, this sounds like progress. A big thanks to all of those Alexandrians who have been working to increase the APD’s understanding of cycling. Keep at it – you’re making a difference!

[lordofthemark]

@Rootchopper 146311 wrote:

“Equally?” Thanks. I needed a laugh this morning.

In the past I have been pulled over for rolling through a stop sign at 3 miles per hour (I was clipped in) and given a 5 minute lecture by an APD officer. It was at Union and King at a time when no one else was within 20 feet of the intersection. The APD officer’s rant was totally obnoxious and unnecessary. Expect the same.

My impression from the meeting was that while they would not insist on foot down stops, they would ticket cyclists doing what I consider ” a proper Idaho stop”. Not sure what speed they will accept – I would have thought they would have allowed 3MPH, which is walking speed, but I think it will be up to the individual officer. This impression (combined with some things said at the meeting by some OTCA folks) left me rather upset. After a couple of days to cool down, I do realize that we are making progress on infrastructure and on mode share in Alexandria, and the long game is grow cycling till we have enough riding citizens to change the dynamic. Meanwhile, I do encourage folks who have observed dangerous and/or illegal motorist behavior in places other than those targeted by this initiative, to report them using call click connect. Perhaps APD will find a need to use their resources in wiser ways.

[MFC]

@Zack 146309 wrote:

APD just kicked off a dedicated enforcement effort for at least 60 days targeting cyclists, pedestrians and drivers equally. They plan to reassess at 60 days and may extend it 30 more. According to the head of the motors unit, officers are looking to warn or ticket cyclists who do not slow down for stop signs. They are not looking for a complete stop with a foot down but do want to see cyclists slow down, yield to pedestrians in the crosswalk and cars entering the intersection or stopped first. APD does understand about clips and does not expect those cyclists to completely stop so long as they yield to pedestrians and cars with the right of way. Expect motorcycle officers along the Old Town/Union St corridor as well as Del Ray/Commonwealth corridor although they do want to cover the entire city.

On Monday morning, I saw one officer on sitting a motorcycle at E Del Ray Ave and Commonwealth. I slowed down with another cyclist for that stop sign and the officer did not move. A lot of the officers do not particularly like ticketing cyclists but if a cyclist is rude or defensive, they are more likely to write a ticket than a warning.

While I appreciate that APD appears to understand that nuance between a stop and complete stop, I am not sure targeting pedestrians, cyclists and drivers equally is the best policy, especially given that one group is the predominant cause of injuries and death. APD operates on a complaints driven model and the majority of an unknown number of complaints do eminent from the Union St corridor.

I’m sure people will bitch, but if this what the APD adheres to it is actually quite reasonable.

[Emm]

@Rootchopper 146311 wrote:

“Equally?” Thanks. I needed a laugh this morning.

In the past I have been pulled over for rolling through a stop sign at 3 miles per hour (I was clipped in) and given a 5 minute lecture by an APD officer. It was at Union and King at a time when no one else was within 20 feet of the intersection. The APD officer’s rant was totally obnoxious and unnecessary. Expect the same.

I’ll have to start keeping a closer eye out now–I always hit my brakes, slow wayyy down and look both ways at all the intersections on Union, but I typically only come to a full stop at King, just because it’s the only intersection at 6:45/7am that actually has pedestrians or cars thanks to the Starbucks. This past week though I have seen countless runners on the street fly though all the intersections down Union without looking both ways. I wonder if the police will actually talk to any of them. (doubt it…)

[consularrider]

Officer was talking with a cyclist in the north bound bike lane on Commonwealth yesterday about 8:30 am. The officer had a clipboard in his hand so I’m not sure if a ticket was involved.

[chris_s]

@lordofthemark 146323 wrote:

After a couple of days to cool down, I do realize that we are making progress on infrastructure and on mode share in Alexandria, and the long game is grow cycling till we have enough riding citizens to change the dynamic.

On my ride in this morning on Commonwealth Ave, I was behind a middle school girl on her bike with a musical instrument bungie-d to her rear rack. This is serious progress. Keep fighting the good fight.

[CaseyKane50]

Some clarifications to what has been posted above.

While the Alexandria Police Department is responding to citizen complaints, they are also responding to feedback from members of City Council. For some, rampant stop sign running has become intolerable. Citizens are not only complaining, but are collecting data. On Saturday, one citizen spoke at the City Council hearing describing his count of bike riders at a street corner on Royal Street – in the time he counted, he observed 24 bike riders, 82% of them did not slow down while going through the stop, 18 % reduced their speed and 1 stopped.

This past Thursday when volunteers were out counting people who walk and bike, they too observed similar behavior. On the corner of Prince and Royal Street, three residents of the area were counting bike riders who did or did not stop. I stopped to chat with them and personally watched six riders go through the stop without slowing down. While they weren’t counting cars that didn’t stop, I did not observe any while I was talking with them.

At the BPAC meeting on Monday evening, Sgt. Seckler did announce a 60-day enforcement and education program targeted at all users of the roads – people who walk, bike and drive. While some of the effort is going to be focused in the Old Town area, the program will also target other parts of the City. Following the meeting, a citizen, who had attended the meeting, contacted City Council to get clarification as to how stopping was going to be enforced for people who ride bikes. City Council forwarded the citizen’s query to the Police Department and Deputy Chief Huchler provided the following response.

I wanted to follow up on your e-mail regarding last night’s BPAC meeting. I have reviewed your e-mail and want to rectify Sergeant Seckler’s comments, the current state of the law and the Police Department’s approach to the important issue of traffic safety. I spoke with Sergeant Seckler today and have concluded that he did not do an effective job of explaining what the law is and how police officers can use discretion in enforcement to meet the overarching goal of traffic safety.

The law as written requires that both motor vehicles and bicyclists come to a complete stop at all stop signs. There is no requirement that a bicyclist place a “foot on the ground,” but such an action would be indicative of a concerted effort to come to a stop. It is certainly possible to comply with the law and not place a “foot on the ground.” It is the Police Department’s expectation that bicyclists will fulfill their obligations as required by law.

The Police Department’s overarching goal in conducting this operation, or any traffic operation, is to increase traffic safety for all those who travel our roadways. Enforcement of the law is but one tool that is available to officers to help meet that goal. Our officers are given discretion so that they can find the best way to gain compliance and increase safety in a given circumstance. This is not to say that enforcement is never appropriate, it is often the best and most suitable means available, but officers are given the authority to use the means they consider most appropriate to meet the goal of improving safety given the circumstances they are presented.

The fact of the matter remains that bicyclists, as well as motorists and pedestrians, are expected to follow traffic laws. When an individual fails to follow those laws there is a potential to create an unsafe environment. If an officer observes such behavior, we all expect him/her to take action, through enforcement or otherwise, to address the behavior in an effort to foster increased safety.

I thank you for taking the time to bring this matter to the Police Department’s attention. We look forward to continuing to work with the community on these issues and improving traffic safety in our City.

Sincerely,

Deputy Chief David Huchler

The Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Group (BPAC) supports the efforts of the City to make our streets safe for all users. We will continue to work with City staff, people who bike and walk and other citizens to achieve that goal.

[lordofthemark]

@CaseyKane50 146334 wrote:

Some clarifications to what has been posted above.

While the Alexandria Police Department is responding to citizen complaints, they are also responding to feedback from members of City Council. For some, rampant stop sign running has become intolerable. Citizens are not only complaining, but are collecting data on bike riders. On Saturday, one citizen spoke at the City Council hearing describing his count of bike riders at a street corner on Royal Street – in the time he counted, he observed 24 bike riders, 82% of them did not slow down while going through the stop, 18 % reduced their speed and 1 stopped.

I cannot at this time give more than impressionistic evidence of the behavior of motor vehicles on upper King Street. I can drive my car at the speed limit to provide better data, but even doing that I cannot safely count the number of cars going over the speed limit (and let us recall that driving 1 mph over the limit is also illegal, as is failure to stop at a stop sign, and a car going over the limit is more dangerous than a cyclist idahoing an intersection at 3MPH, IMO). To safely count them, I would need a radar gun (which I could use while standing at the corner).

I fully understand that BPAC as a body cannot raise these kinds of objections (and some members of BPAC may not agree with them at all). I do think as a citizen that this campaign (which by its announced locations seems to me to be aimed at cyclists – if the target was motorist misbehavior we would not be looking at the most traffic calmed locations in the City). I appreciate and want to continue to support BPAC’s work. I cannot find it in me to participate in another stop sign education campaign at King and Union though. I have seen no public acknowledgement of those kinds of efforts from OTCA. Though I also do realize that what is discussed behind the scenes with members of council cannot be discussed here, and it is quite possible the politics are very different than they appear. I will defer to experienced members of BPAC on that. However I also will be glad to contribute to WABA and support their efforts to legalize the Idaho Stop in the District – while I do not expect that to lead to legislative change in Virginia, I would hope that if and when it happens it will at least open up a new and different discourse on the matter in the inner jurisdictions, at least.

Personally I will continue to stop at the corner of King and Union (there are pedestrians and/or cross traffic there whenever I ride there) and will avoid treating any intersection in an unsafe manner.

[sjclaeys]

@CaseyKane50 146334 wrote:

Some clarifications to what has been posted above.

While the Alexandria Police Department is responding to citizen complaints, they are also responding to feedback from members of City Council. For some, rampant stop sign running has become intolerable. Citizens are not only complaining, but are collecting data on bike riders. On Saturday, one citizen spoke at the City Council hearing describing his count of bike riders at a street corner on Royal Street – in the time he counted, he observed 24 bike riders, 82% of them did not slow down while going through the stop, 18 % reduced their speed and 1 stopped.

This past Thursday when volunteers were out counting people who walk and bike, they too observed similar behavior. On the corner of Prince and Royal Street, three residents of the area were counting bike riders who did or did not stop. I stopped to chat with them and personally watched six riders go through the stop without slowing down. While they weren’t counting cars that didn’t stop, I did not observe any while I was talking with them.

At the BPAC meeting on Monday evening, Sgt. Seckler did announce a 60-day enforcement and education program targeted at all users of the roads – people who walk, bike and drive. While some of the effort is going to be focused in the Old Town area, the program will also target other parts of the City. Following the meeting, a citizen, who had attended the meeting, contacted City Council to get clarification as to how stopping was going to be enforced for people who ride bikes. City Council forwarded the citizen’s query to the Police Department and Deputy Chief Huchler provided the following response.

The Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Group (BPAC) supports the efforts of the City to make our streets safe for all users. We will continue to work with City staff, people who bike and walk and other citizens to achieve that goal.

The fact that they have no apparent interest to count cars not coming to a complete stop undermines these folks’ apparent concern about safety. I’m surprised that the Alexandria cycling advocacy community is not pushing back on this.

[lordofthemark]

@sjclaeys 146336 wrote:

The fact that they have no apparent interest to count cars not coming to a complete stop undermines these folks’ apparent concern about safety. I’m surprised that the Alexandria cycling advocacy community is not pushing back on this.

But as I think I implied above, the possible duplicity of some residents of Old Town does not necessarily indicate what the optimal political strategy to deal with that should be.

I would also remind that members of BPAC (of which I am not one) are necessarily more constrained in what can be said in public (that is not to suggest that anyone has posted anything here they do not believe in, but just a general reminder). Statements by BPAC members can and will be used by those unsympathetic to biking, including being quoted out of context.

I will say that Alexandria politics gives me added appreciation for Game of Thrones. And vice versa.

[LeprosyStudyGroup]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12470[/ATTACH]

I *volunteered to count* for BPAC this past weekend at the intersection where Commonwealth goes under the train tracks at the King St. Metro.

Here’s a picture of my form from Saturday. Take a look at the red circled area. I decided to amuse myself by counting the number of southwest bound vehicles that failed to come to a complete stop at the stop sign during a random 15 minute period (yeah it gets boring counting peds). 23 cars didn’t stop during that 15 minutes. Only two cars drove through the stop sign at speed though (I guess between 15-25 MPH) – they were both Taxis.

I didn’t notice if any of the 6 bikers didn’t stop, and I would lend them the assumption that they made sure whatever they did wouldn’t lead to their immediate deaths.

[CaseyKane50]

@sjclaeys 146336 wrote:

The fact that they have no apparent interest to count cars not coming to a complete stop undermines these folks’ apparent concern about safety. I’m surprised that the Alexandria cycling advocacy community is not pushing back on this.

I misspoke on what the counters were counting. I only spoke to one group and know they weren’t counting motor vehicles.

I can assure you that people who ride bikes have spoken up and pointed out unsafe drivers and locations. In several instances, I have even provided videos to the appropriate authorities when I have documented unsafe practices.

[lordofthemark]

And note, as we all know, as BPAC knows, as OTCA may not care about, and as Council ought to know, it is not relevant how many cars roll stops compared to how many bikes roll stops. Running stops is the “typical bike infraction” because riding relies on momentum, because bikes are maneuverable and unlikely to hit pedestrians when they do so (even when they do so near pedestrians, as they should not) and they are light and relatively slow, so they do not present a grave danger if they do hit someone. If cars were to do the same we would have a carnage on our streets impossible to ignore. OTOH cars regularly violate the speed limit – everyone knows it, every traffic study in the City confirms it (well maybe not that much in largely traffic calmed Old Town) Bikes almost never do. Because cars and bikes are different, contra the Forrester School of VC. I mean its like looking at how many hedge fund managers picked pockets on the subway in 2007. It misses the point.

To compare bike behavior relative to stop signs, to car behavior relative to stop signs – and not to other behavior by motorists which most take for granted, is to concede the game. Now that leaves open the question as to how to make that case in this particular polity. I am not convinced a stronger “pushback” would work better. But I do think we should at least think about how to break that narrow comparison. Maybe Vision Zero will help.

[Author]

Posts