Missed connection

[DCLiz]

@jabberwocky 126403 wrote:

This illustrates our approach to driver safety over the past few decades. Basically, making the cars much more safe to be in a crash, while doing almost nothing to stop them from crashing into each other in the first place (which is admittedly largely a driver issue, not an issue with the car itself).

Morning Edition had a piece last week on the different auto safety standards in Europe and the U.S. One of the differences: Europe has a standard for pedestrian safety–as in what happens when a car hits a pedestrian. Talk about priorities!

[dasgeh]

@Steve O 126399 wrote:

He suggested that when a car runs a red light, the driver is protected by the frame and air bags, etc.–seemingly forgetting that it’s not the safety of the person in the car he should be most concerned about. Weird.

Also weird that the guy didn’t realize that the protection of the driver v. vulnerability of a person on a bike is one of the reasons that we should focus enforcement on drivers and not cyclists: drivers are less likely to be the ones injured by their actions. In other words, physics/biology tend to do a good job of enforcing safe cycling behavior. We need the police to help enforce good driver behavior.

[scoot]

Saturday afternoon around 4:30.
Me: riding westbound on Beauregard just entering the intersection with Braddock/NVCC on a green light.
You: woman driving down the hill from NVCC, making no effort to stop before turning right on red, then only slamming on your brakes after the front half of your vehicle was already in my lane.

Thankfully the wind and the grade kept my speed low enough that I could react in time.

Oh, and I also noticed the cell phone in your left hand that you were looking down at. 😡

[AFHokie]

@jabberwocky 126403 wrote:

This illustrates our approach to driver safety over the past few decades. Basically, making the cars much more safe to be in a crash, while doing almost nothing to stop them from crashing into each other in the first place (which is admittedly largely a driver issue, not an issue with the car itself).

I’d like to see a better application of prevention…mitigating the physics of a 3000+ pound vehicle impacting a 180lbs human isn’t as easy as deterring it from occurring in the first place.

No design will ever completely mollify an impact in which a pedestrian/cyclist will always lose.

Pedestrian safety has been incorporated into vehicle design for awhile. A few links:

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/sr/statusreport/article/48/10/3
http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/protecting-pedestrians-through-vehicle-design.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/taking-the-hit-how-pedestrian-protection-regs-make-cars-fatter-feature
http://papers.sae.org/2011-01-0084/
http://www.wired.com/2007/11/will-pedestrian/
Link to book from 2009 on biomechanics of pedestrian impacts:
http://www.springer.com/us/book/9789048127429

[scoot]

@dasgeh 126407 wrote:

Also weird that the guy didn’t realize that the protection of the driver v. vulnerability of a person on a bike is one of the reasons that we should focus enforcement on drivers and not cyclists: drivers are less likely to be the ones injured by their actions. In other words, physics/biology tend to do a good job of enforcing safe cycling behavior. We need the police to help enforce good driver behavior.

I think we agree, though I’d express it a bit differently. Enforcement should be proportionate to the destruction that can be wrought upon all potential innocent bystanders, not tied to the vulnerability of the misbehaving road users themselves. Bad drivers kill numerous innocent people every day. Bad cyclists very rarely hurt anyone other than themselves.

[dasgeh]

@scoot 126411 wrote:

I think we agree, though I’d express it a bit differently. Enforcement should be proportionate to the destruction that can be wrought upon all potential innocent bystanders, not tied to the vulnerability of the misbehaving road users themselves. Bad drivers kill numerous innocent people every day. Bad cyclists very rarely hurt anyone other than themselves.

I would say your reason and my reason are separate but complementary in this case. One reason to go after bad drivers more aggressively: they can hurt bystanders to a great degree. Another reason: a bad cyclist is putting him/herself at risk as well.

[baiskeli]

@scoot 126411 wrote:

Bad drivers kill numerous innocent people every day. Bad cyclists very rarely hurt anyone other than themselves.

True, and yet we have more than a few bad cyclists out there. Apparently even self-preservation doesn’t always regulate behavior.

[mstone]

@baiskeli 126415 wrote:

True, and yet we have more than a few bad cyclists out there. Apparently even self-preservation doesn’t always regulate behavior.

If they’re doing these horrible things and not getting killed, maybe it isn’t that dangerous.

@AFHokie 126409 wrote:

I’d like to see a better application of prevention…mitigating the physics of a 3000+ pound vehicle impacting a 180lbs human isn’t as easy as deterring it from occurring in the first place.

It’s a holistic thing. Part of the reduction in auto occupant deaths is the result of safer road-adjacent infrastructure. (Barrels on bridge abutments, guard rails all over the place, breakaway poles, etc.) We’ve spent billions on that stuff, but not so much on the peds. We’ve definitely made cars in the US safer for pedestrians, vs the ben-hur decorations of the 50s, and we’re ahead of europe in some ways. (E.g., mandatory backup cameras.)

[bobco85]

Hmm, this incident just gave me an idea relating to red-light runners for future technology.

Vehicles of the future could have red light detection systems that do the following:

• camera detects an upcoming stoplight changing to yellow and eventually to red within a certain distance
• the vehicle navigation system keeps track of speed limits on the current road
• vehicle automatically lowers speed gradually to below speed limit
• vehicle prevents any burst of acceleration (even if the driver presses the pedal to the floor)
• warning alarm alerts the driver of upcoming stop
• brake lights flash early to prevent rear-end collision especially from tailgaters
• vehicles will communicate wirelessly with each other so that lines of cars will all be able to stop safely as a group

My idea is based on current technology like lane departure warning systems and collision avoidance systems. I figure since we’re getting closer to self-driving cars as more assistive and automatic functions are created, this could be a good one.

[Subby]

Self-driving cars are the answer, right? I know I’ll be dead by the time they’re ubiquitous, but I think they help avoid this kind of garbage.

Glad you are okay – been through that intersection a million times…that is scary af.

[ShawnoftheDread]

Since our trains don’t seem to be able to be fully automated, with only what’s directly in front of them to worry about, I don’t see how self-driving cars are going to save us.

[mstone]

@ShawnoftheDread 126439 wrote:

Since our trains don’t seem to be able to be fully automated, with only what’s directly in front of them to worry about, I don’t see how self-driving cars are going to save us.

Because no matter how bad things are, they’ll be better than human drivers. FWIW, the reasons not to automate trains tend to be more human than technical.

[PotomacCyclist]

Some stats on the deadliness of road/trail users:

In 2013, 32,719 people died in the U.S. because of motor vehicle crashes. The number and percentage of victims by category:

Car occupants – 12,639 / 39% of the total number of fatalities
Pickup/SUV occupants – 8,285 / 25%
Large truck occupants – 586 / 2%
Motorcyclists – 4,381 / 13%
Pedestrians – 4,735 / 14%
Cyclists – 741 / 2%

There are differing stats about how often the various parties are at fault in crashes involving different categories (driver/pedestrian, driver/motorcycle, driver/cyclist). I’m not sure I buy into some of those stats because we’ve all seen how police officers frequently assume the non car driver was at fault. Another factor is that in a crash between a car and a pedestrian or a car and a cyclist, it’s unlikely that the pedestrian or cyclists will be uninjured and alert (or even alive). So there is often just one witness, the driver. Many/most people will not give a neutral account in such a situation, so the blame will frequently be shifted to the pedestrian or the cyclist.

When I walk up to intersections as a pedestrian (which I do frequently), the first driver to reach a red light will run that red light about 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 times. I see this day after day after day. I also see many pedestrians walk into crosswalks or jaywalk while only paying attention to their smartphones. I see some cyclists (mostly those who appear to be bike messengers — sorry but it’s true and it has been my observation time and again) run red lights. Who is at fault in most crashes? I have no idea, but I know that drivers break traffic laws as often or more often than so-called scofflaw cyclists or pedestrians.

Whatever the numbers, we know that drivers are involved with tens of thousands of deaths in the U.S. every year, or about 90 deaths a day. This includes drivers who die in these crashes. At the very least, we know that the operation of cars is deadly for many people. That can’t be argued. Even if you accept an assertion that pedestrians/cyclists are responsible for a third of the car/pedestrian or car/bike crashes, that still means that drivers are still killing thousands of pedestrians and cyclists every year because of their behavior or external factors (sunlight in the eyes of the driver, etc.).

On the other side of the coin, there are very few deaths caused by cyclists each year in the U.S. I’ve never been able to find any statistics because the numbers are apparently so low. I read one assertion that cyclists cause about 5 or 6 deaths a year in the U.S. That’s across the entire country over an entire year. But I can’t find any reports or studies on that. I read through a multi-year study of road deaths in New York State. There was less than 1 cyclist-caused death on average per year over the 4 or 5-year span of the study. New York is one of the most populous states. If there is less than 1 cyclist-caused death there per year, I tend to accept the statement that nationwide, cyclists may only cause 5 or 6 deaths a year.

In any case, that’s a very low number. More people will die of MRSA infections (18,650 deaths in 2005 although the number has been decreasing rapidly) or bee stings (40 a year) or being crushed by televisions or furniture (25-30 a year). Terrorism deaths in the U.S. are also relatively low, under 20 a year for foreign-actor attacks, but not counting domestic attacks.

Just some numbers to support the need to address the greater threats to the health and safety of most Americans. [Smoking causes 480,000 deaths a year, although many of those deaths take place somewhat later in life. Smoking does greatly increase healthcare spending and decreases the quality of life and work productivity, for a total bill of $300 billion a year, with only $25 billion received in tobacco-related taxes.]

Some of the sources:
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/state-by-state-overview
http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/more-americans-killed-by-bees-and-wasps-or-falling-televisions-than-by-terrorists?news=844603
http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/news/20071016/more-us-deaths-from-mrsa-than-aids
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/

[PotomacCyclist]

As for self-driving cars, Tesla has already started toward that goal with their latest software update. Their cars aren’t self-driving but for highway conditions, they require much less human control than other cars do. For liability reasons, Tesla still recommends that drivers keep one or two hands on the steering wheel. Their cars will be able to stay in a lane and avoid other cars and trucks under relatively steady highway conditions. The software doesn’t work at slower speeds and in more complicated urban driving situations (frequent 90-degree turns, stops and starts, interactions with pedestrians and cyclists).

http://www.wired.com/2015/10/tesla-self-driving-over-air-update-live/

[dasgeh]

@PotomacCyclist 126454 wrote:

In 2013, 32,719 people died in the U.S. because of motor vehicle crashes. The number and percentage of victims by category:

Car occupants – 12,639 / 39% of the total number of fatalities
Pickup/SUV occupants – 8,285 / 25%
Large truck occupants – 586 / 2%
Motorcyclists – 4,381 / 13%
Pedestrians – 4,735 / 14%
Cyclists – 741 / 2%

Yep, there’s no good data out there. Even these numbers aren’t helpful, because they don’t control for how much people are doing these activities. For example, if people are in Pickups/SUVs about as much as they are in cars, then you could extrapolate that Pickups/SUVs were safer. But we don’t know that, so we can’t.

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