Let’s talk about Box, baby!

[dasgeh]

Dear bike shop owner

When a person calls you, having done a lot of research (including test rides) about a specific type of bike, of which you have little to no knowledge, but looking into the possibility of having your shop add on to that bike in a way that you are supposedly expert, don’t disparage that type of bike in favor of complete bike builds you have in store. I was never going to buy the type of bike you stock, and now I’m not going to have you work on the bike I do buy. Or the other bike that I need to have fixed in the way you are supposedly expert.

(I know, not a missed connection, but a truly annoying experience).

[Tim Kelley]

@dasgeh 49299 wrote:

Dear bike shop owner

When a person calls you, having done a lot of research (including test rides) about a specific type of bike, of which you have little to no knowledge, but looking into the possibility of having your shop add on to that bike in a way that you are supposedly expert, don’t disparage that type of bike in favor of complete bike builds you have in store. I was never going to buy the type of bike you stock, and now I’m not going to have you work on the bike I do buy. Or the other bike that I need to have fixed in the way you are supposedly expert.

(I know, not a missed connection, but a truly annoying experience).

You mean like switching out components or adding a rack or something along those lines? Can you give us a hint on which local shop this would be??

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 49300 wrote:

You mean like switching out components or adding a rack or something along those lines? Can you give us a hint on which local shop this would be??

It was adding e-assist to a bakfiets. There’s only one local shop that does e-assist, that I know of, so that should be a good hint.

On the topic of bakfiets, if anyone is seriously interested, the closest bike shop that carries them (in Brooklyn) is going to put in an order soon for delivery end of May/beginning of June. Having done a lot of research, this is the cheapest you can get a box bike (even with delivery). Combining delivery might save some $$. PM me.

[83b]

Also on the topic of bakfiets! The Daily Rider on H Street stocks the Larry v. Harry Bullit and the Gazelle Cabby. And last I checked BicycleSPACE near the convention center has a couple of Christiana Trikes (and maybe another brand of bakfiets?).

And installing the electrics shouldn’t be too difficult. Though I suppose a front hub-motor would need a longer run for the power and throttle connections. Mind if I ask what kind of build you’re looking at? I’ve been pining over an electric Metrofiets for a long while now.

[dasgeh]

We’re almost definitely going with this: http://rollingorangebikes.com/cargobikes/bakfiets-nl/

I should call Daily Rider, though. I had heard they have box bikes, but they are silent about them on their website. Does anyone know how much they’re selling for? At Rolling Orange the regular bakfiets is $2050 and the eassist is $3700. Even with shipping, that’s significantly cheaper than I’ve seen other box bikes. Plus, bakfiets builds thousands of bikes per year for the Netherlands, so the quality is well know (and respected). And certified for use with kids.

[Tim Kelley]

I wish I knew how to move these posts into their own thread under the family biking section…

[83b]

I’m not sure what the Daily Rider is selling it’s models for, but based on their prices for other stuff I suspect they’re comparable.

Rolling Orange looks like a great dealer and their Bakfiets.nl offering seems like a nice turn-key solution. Though when the battery conks in a couple of years it would probably be much more cost effective to replace it with an off brand battery from a vendor like Ping. A 24 Volt 10 Amp replacement would only set you back about $200, compared to the $500-700 I’ve seen for stock replacements.

Congrats on the decision! I’m envious.

[Meganomics]

@83(b) 49323 wrote:

I’m not sure what the Daily Rider is selling it’s models for, but based on their prices for other stuff I suspect they’re comparable.

Rolling Orange looks like a great dealer and their Bakfiets.nl offering seems like a nice turn-key solution. Though when the battery conks in a couple of years it would probably be much more cost effective to replace it with an off brand battery from a vendor like Ping. A 24 Volt 10 Amp replacement would only set you back about $200, compared to the $500-700 I’ve seen for stock replacements.

Hey all, thought I’d pitch in with some answers where I could.

BicycleSPACE stocks the Boxcycles Christiania, a cargo trike, which retails for around $2,700
The Daily Rider stocks the Gazelle Cabby–a lighter-weight bike in the Boxbike style–and I believe the price point is $2,700 – $2,800

Daily Rider also stocks the Larry vs. Harry Bullitt. The Bullitt is becoming a very popular boxbike in the U.S. because it is built on an aluminum frame and is therefore both lighter and faster than a traditional, wood-and-steel Dutch boxbike. They are also compatible with the BionX electric pedal-assist system. The Hum of the City family in San Francisco (Humofthecity.com) went on a cargo bike-seeking odyssey last year after selling their minivan, and after weeks of exhaustive testing, they settles on an electric-assist Bullitt to carry their two kids plus groceries up and down the hills of San Francisco. There are two downsides: (1), Larry vs. Harry is expensive (buying just the platform, no box or cover or anything, will get you close to the cost of a complete Bakfiets), and (2) they are built modularly, which means you’d have to order a box and raincover for your kids separately or have them custom built. Finally, they are built for taller people–starting at 5’6″ or so. I tried riding one last year at the ABC’s of Family Biking and just could. not. do. it. because the top tube standover height is several inches higher than my inseam (owie). All that being said, if you’re not too short and are in the market for a true car replacement–and are budgeting accordingly–Lvs.H is a GREAT way to go and is really picking up steam among American cargo biking families.

The Daily Rider, along with the local Larry vs. Harry distributor (who is a total sweetheart!) will be exhibiting at The ABC’s of Family Biking on 4/28.

FINALLY, Rolling Orange stocks one more bike that I really think you should take a look at, dasgeh and others: http://rollingorangebikes.com/urban-arrow-cargo-bike/ The Urban Arrow is the latest entry in the “modern electric boxbike” category and has been generating a lot of excitement among the American family biking community. Dena, who leads the growing Philadelphia Kidical Mass ride, just recently acquired an Urban Arrow and LOVES it (http://bikemamadelphia.blogspot.com/, Twitter @lachute). As does her toddler son, who apparently has been known to climb into the box an hour early just because he wants to ride it so much. I haven’t tried one in person, but looking at pictures, it appears to be more friendly to the vertically-challenged of us (ahem) than some of the other boxbike options.

I hope this helps! I’m looking forward to hearing how your choice goes. Are you planning to come to the ABC’s of Family Biking next week? There will be Larry vs. Harry, Gazelle Cabby (hopefully), and I believe also a CETMA boxbike.

Good luck!

Megan

[dasgeh]

I’ve done a lot of research about this, and here’s what I’ve come up with:

Locally: (Bike shop – bike (notes) – price)
Daily Rider – Gazelle Cabby – $2800
Daily Rider – Bullitt (coaster brake in the rear, disk in front, unsure whether the box is included) – $3200
Daily Rider – Bullitt (disk in front & back, unsure whether the box is included) – $3600
Daily Rider – Babboe City-E – $4200
Daily Rider – Babboe City – $2500
Green Commuter – cetma (21 spd w mechanical disk brakes, no box)** – ~$3000
BicycleSpace – Christiania CB 2 Wheeler – ?

Green Commuter can convert bikes to e-assist, starting at $1450 ($1200 for kit + $250 for labor)

Not local — add shipping. (So far the only firm price I’ve heard is $800 to get a box bike from NY to CA, but that’s a good starting point)
Rolling Orange – Bakfiets wo e-assist – $2050
Rolling Orange – Bakfiets w e-assist – $3750
Rolling Orange – Gazelle Cabby – $2850
Rolling Orange – Urban Arrow w e-assist and NuVinci – $4650
Metrofiets – Basic e-assist (no upgrades) – $6200
Clevercycles – bakfiets wo e-assist with NuVinci- $3410
Clevercycles – cetma (no box) – $1850
Clevercycles – Gazelle Cabby – $2800
Tom’s Cargo Bikes – Custom – $??? [Thanks jopamora]
JC Lind (Chicago) – Winther Wallaroo – $2750
JC Lind (Chicago) – Workcycles bakfiets – $3200
Dutch Bike Co (Chicago or Seattle) – bakfiets wo e-assist – $3000
Splendid Cycles – Bullitts:lots of options – $3000 – $4500 (basic ebike) – $6000
Adeline Adeline – bakfiets wo e-assist – $3200

A few notes:
— I’m specifically looking for a box bike – there are other options that might be great for others, but I’m only looking at 2 wheelers that have a box-like thing in front
— I’ll add to this as I find other things. If you have a suggestion, please let me know and I’ll add.
**Note: the owner of Green Commuter described the cetma differently than what I can find on the web, so it might be a different bike.

If you have other/more info, please let me know. I’m happy to keep updating this (check below for last update).

Thanks
Gillian

[dasgeh]

Thanks, Meganomics. That’s a lot of great information! The Urban Arrow looks drool worthy. I’m just not convinced NuVinci and drool-worthiness is worth $900 (those seem to be the differences between the bakfiets e-assist and the U.A.). I’m going to try to make the ABCs, but I’ll be alone with both kids, coming straight from church, so no promises. We have a Weehoo if you need one to display. I can’t get it there, so we’d have to arrange that.

83(b) – thanks for the tip. If you have more info and cheaper e-conversions, I’m all ears. Unfortunately, we’re not going to do the work ourselves, so we’d need to have it installed. I’m not the biggest fan of the G.C. at this point, though I can’t speak for their work on e-conversions.

I put all my research up there. As you can see, the rollingorange e-Bakfiets comes in at less than $4550 (depending on shipping; it’ll probably be less). It might be possible to install an e-assist on a cargo bike locally for a little less, but probably not. Plus, I know and trust the Bakfiets brand for moving little ones around.

That’s where I am now. I welcome thoughts, though.

[dasgeh]

And here are some reviews I’ve looked at for various box bikes:

Urban Arrow: http://bikemamadelphia.blogspot.com/2013/03/our-box-bike-search-begins-testing.html

Bakfiets: http://dutchcargobike.com.au/2011/04/review-electrical-bakfiets/

[kyleg]

I’ve recently completed a box bike shopping adventure, so I thought I’d share a few things I’ve learned so far.

I’d ridden a rented bakfiets.nl a few times in the past and was highly impressed with it. When the time came to purchase a kid transporter, the bakfiets.nl was the gold standard. But I wanted to perform due diligence and try all of the long john/box-in-front bikes available to me in the current market.

Christiania (*not a long john, but still box-in-front): It was surprisingly easy to tip the three-wheeled bike without carrying anything in the box. Obviously, this would be less of a problem with a child providing weight up front, but still a scary thought. I could imagine a trike being a good solution for short, local trips at low speeds.

Larry vs. Harry Bullitt: Like others mentioned, I just. could. not. ride. it. I’ve had stints with road racing and mountain biking in the past, but I just couldn’t get comfortable with the steering and braking of the L vs. H. I think it certainly fills a niche, but it’s probably more for cargo transport than child transport… and that’s what most of their promotional material seems to imply anyway. I wouldn’t mind having a fleet of these if I owned an urban delivery company.

Gazelle Cabby: The ride was upright and comfortable – like a Dutch bike should be – and the steering was responsive without being awkward. It rode very much like the bakfiets.nl – perhaps a little faster and jauntier. My two concerns were that it is (I believe) made of aluminum and the sides of the “box” are fabric. Yes, there’s a “roll bar” that holds up the fabric, but if it came down to a choice between a bakfiets.nl and a Cabby I would prefer to carry my child in a concrete-impregnated wooden box. On the plus side, the fold up sides and roll bar allow the bike to be squeezed through narrow doorways, etc. Aluminum scares me on a bike that is probably going to take a lot of abuse.

bakfiets.nl/Workcycles Cargo Bike: Most recently, I test rode (for a total of three experiences) the bakfiets at Adeline Adeline in Manhattan. The design has been slightly changed since I first rode a bakfiets in 2008. The primary difference is that the seat angle is even more relaxed now (by about 9 degrees). This makes the bike feel a little more like a recumbent and may irk some people, but in my opinion it wasn’t too relaxed. Otherwise, balancing is simple and the steering (like the Cabby) is very easy – it just takes a minute to get used to it. It can take a lot of spinning to get moving, but once the bike is up to 10-15 mph, it just keeps going.

I decided to go with the bakfiets.nl and crunched the numbers. Ordering from Adeline Adeline, Clever Cycles, or any other American shop outside of DC would entail shipping charges in the ~$500 range. In the end, I went directly to WorkCycles, which is the Amsterdam shop that exports bakfiets.nl bikes to the US under the WorkCycles Cargo Bike moniker. Modifications for the US market and shipping from NL will cost 800 Euros, which is admittedly steep. But the list price for buying the bike from NL was significantly cheaper, which more than offset the higher retail price and shipping cost from an American dealer. I’d prefer to buy from an LBS, but the cost savings and hassles were too significant to ignore for the bike I wanted. In the end, I won’t pay the 20% Dutch VAT, but I will pay an 11% import duty when it comes through customs.

If you have access to a large car/van and the time/interest to drive to New York to pick up a bakfiets, it could be cheaper to buy from Adeline Adeline than to have one shipped from NL, but we wanted to avoid the hassle of pickup.

Sadly, the bike won’t arrive in time for the ABC’s, but I’d be glad to share advice with anyone who might be considering a Dutch bakfiets.

[Tim Kelley]

Thanks for sharing, everyone!

I’m actually glad to hear that Bullitt works better for taller riders. Being 6’6”, the stock Bullitt seemed just about right if I got a seat post with a longer minimum insertion. And I’m not as interested in the e-assist, so the lighter weight and performance orientation sounds good to me too.

[dasgeh]

Thanks, kyleg. That’s some great information.

Quick question: Did you consider Rolling Orange? I didn’t see them in your write up. They import directly from bakfiets.nl and their prices seem much better than the workcycles importers (like Adeline Adeline)

[kyleg]

Dasgeh, glad I could help. I looked at Rolling Orange and almost stopped by on a recent trip to Brooklyn, but never made it to the store and it wasn’t clear to me at the time whether they carried bakfiets.nl or just mentioned it on their website. If it’s true that they carry the bakfiets.nl for a price in the $2,000s, then I’m about to get buyer’s remorse. As long as it’s the real deal (bakfiets.nl’s Van Andel design licensed to Azor for manufacturing) then that sounds like it could be a great deal. As I understand it, the modifications that Workcycles makes for US export is to add beefier brakes and the Nexus 8 hub. Most bakfiets sold in NL only have 3 speeds, I believe.

I’m also having Workcycles install their version of the infant car seat holder.

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