January ’16 – Trail Condition: That time they predicted mind-boggling amounts of snow

[mstone]

@hozn 132001 wrote:

In practice there are plenty of roads in the county/state/country that surely do not adhere to any minimum curve radiuses, so to say that cyclists are not treated like cars sounds a bit exaggerated. I maintain that if cars were causing accidents because they were going too fast and driving around corners in the oncoming lane, the response would be to enforce the rules, not redesign the road.

Luckily as cyclists we get effectively zero enforcement and the option to ride on sidewalks, bike paths, and streets. But don’t worry, we’ll complain as loudly as possible if we ever see a car double parked in the bike lane — or, heaven forbid, a jogger. It’s hard to understand why the rest of the world thinks we’re a bunch of entitled pricks.

Where are all these state/county maintained substandard roads in the DC area? If you look at old maps, sure, you’ll find a lot of them–but they’ve pretty much all been straightened over the years. Take the beltway by rock creek. Those entitled motorists got their own limited access highway but that wasn’t good enough because it was too twisty and they had to slow down. Now it’s been straightened so much it’s barely fun to drive anymore. (And no longer has a substandard speed restriction.) You have to get out into the boonies to find sketchy hairpin turns on tertiary roads these days, you won’t find them on major routes. I guess I mostly don’t understand why you’d be REALLY REALLY PISSED if cycling infrastructure were built and maintained to high standards. For most normal people, that’s a goal rather than a source of outrage. I hope you get over this weird cyclist self-hate and move on.

@lordofthemark 132003 wrote:

So while I am not sure I agree with Mstone on this particular priority

To be clear, I’m not necessarily saying that rebuilding this particular spot should be a priority; given the current levels of infrastructure funding I’m sure that there is lower-hanging fruit that would cost less and provide more bang for the buck. (Given funding commensurate to mode share, it might be a different story.) What I do think is that bike/ped infrastructure should be treated like car infrastructure in that there should be ongoing evaluations and tracking of outstanding needs. For example, just because a bridge has been listed as “functionally obsolete” doesn’t mean that it’s immediately torn down and replaced. But it is factored into future funding requests, may be incorporated into other projects, and is on the list when someone says “what do we do with this extra money”? Currently there just seems to be a check box, “has some kind of bike thing” and the most we can hope for is that the box gets checked. We can do better, and continuously evaluate whether the infrastructure meets current standards based on the current demand. Local governments could also do a better job of transparently evaluating bike/ped infrastructure to identify what has worked and what has not, so they don’t continue to build new deficient facilities. Most importantly, we should expect good service from our governments, and not just accept whatever we get. Is that facility better than an at grade crossing? Of course–it’s immensely better. But that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be improved, or that since we got something we should just shut up and not question whether it could be improved.

[hozn]

@mstone 132024 wrote:

Where are all these state/county maintained substandard roads in the DC area?

I guess you haven’t driven much in Arlington neighborhoods?

@mstone 132024 wrote:

I guess I mostly don’t understand why you’d be REALLY REALLY PISSED if cycling infrastructure were built and maintained to high standards. For most normal people, that’s a goal rather than a source of outrage. I hope you get over this weird cyclist self-hate and move on.

I don’t think anyone, and certainly not I, have suggested that they’d be upset to see infrastructure improved. My point was merely that this is not a priority IMO because it is an example of where something is unsafe merely because people aren’t following the rules. Cyclists (and peds) get injured all the time in situations where they’re following the rules perfectly; I’d rather county/state funding focus on those. Furthermore, I think the hysterics about how “if it was a road they would have fixed it!” is unfounded and “we’re not being treated like cars!” is disingenuous. And so boring.

And finally, I’m perfectly happy with the current situation. The message was really supposed to be the opposite of self-hating, so I guess that failed. I love cycling. I’d rather not be treated like a car. I don’t want someone ticketing me for rolling a stop-sign at a clear intersection when I’m on my bicycle. I don’t want a speed limit on the W&OD. I don’t want to have to buy liability insurance and register my bikes or get a license to ride them. There’s very little that sounds appealing about being treated like a car.

I will stop complaining about all the whining, though; it obviously sounds negative.

[Tania]

@hozn 132028 wrote:

My point was merely that this is not a priority IMO because it is an example of where something is unsafe merely because people aren’t following the rules I]or using common sense[/I. Cyclists (and peds) get injured all the time in situations where they’re following the rules perfectly; I’d rather county/state funding focus on those.

Well said, hozn (my addition in brackets).

[vern]

@mstone 132024 wrote:

Where are all these state/county maintained substandard roads in the DC area? If you look at old maps, sure, you’ll find a lot of them–but they’ve pretty much all been straightened over the years. Take the beltway by rock creek. Those entitled motorists got their own limited access highway but that wasn’t good enough because it was too twisty and they had to slow down. Now it’s been straightened so much it’s barely fun to drive anymore. (And no longer has a substandard speed restriction.) You have to get out into the boonies to find sketchy hairpin turns on tertiary roads these days, you won’t find them on major routes. I guess I mostly don’t understand why you’d be REALLY REALLY PISSED if cycling infrastructure were built and maintained to high standards. For most normal people, that’s a goal rather than a source of outrage. I hope you get over this weird cyclist self-hate and move on.

Actually, there’s a really long list of roads like this. Georgetown Pike is a good place to start…bumper to bumper traffic, no shoulders, hairpin turns, adjacent residents who are quite wealthy or well-off, but the road has not been meaningfully changed.

[PotomacCyclist]

@lordofthemark 132005 wrote:

Today someone wrote in the AlexandrIA Times suggesting that the population of the City be capped, to avoid worsening congestion from more cars. While I think he exaggerated the extent of congestion, it is true that for someplace like Alexandria to grow and provide more housing close to regional job centers, we need to improve all non auto modes.

So is that guy (or gal) going to monitor every apartment, home, hospital, back alley and street corner, to make sure no excessive births happen? Or that no more individuals cross over the Alexandria border, from abroad but also from Arlington, DC, Fairfax or Maryland?

That person sounds as hysterical and loopy as the person who complained that Long Bridge Park in Arlington would bring about bird-carried plagues upon local residents.

One huge problem with that person’s suggestion is that traffic congestion in Alexandria and elsewhere in the regional center is dependent on overall population, transportation planning and economic growth, not just what happens in Alexandria.

hozn wrote:

Luckily as cyclists we get effectively zero enforcement and the option to ride on sidewalks, bike paths, and streets.

There are traffic enforcement stings that target cyclists and pedestrians along with those targeting car drivers. At the same time, I regularly see pedestrians, drivers and cyclists get away with breaking road laws. A couple weeks ago, I saw a woman jaywalk and amble slowly across a high-speed road at night. The speed limit is 35 mph there, I believe. Insane. When I used to work near a bike messenger center (FedEx office where a group of bike messengers would hang out all day, waiting for delivery assignments), I would frequently see one of them zip through, around and in between car traffic in all directions in a busy intersection. Insane.

Of course I see car drivers running red lights almost every single day, especially when I’m walking to an intersection. They speed up to try to beat a yellow light, fail miserably and continue speeding through the red light. This happens all the time. Not every driver does this, but a large percentage do. Maybe 10 to 30 percent of the first drivers to reach the changing light. While many drivers get tickets, a huge number do not, and their actions have very serious consequences (driver, pedestrian and cyclist deaths). It’s extremely rare for a cyclist to cause the death of someone else. Not so rare for a car driver to cause the death of someone else. So I’m not too concerned even if there is more enforcement against car drivers (which I don’t really think is the case).

[PotomacCyclist]

As far as road and trail conditions go, there might be a small amount of snow on Sunday evening. Weather Underground says there’s a 43% chance, with total accumulation likely to be less than an inch.

It will rain on Friday evening and Saturday morning, but temperatures are supposed to stay above freezing, at least in Arlington and DC. Maybe it will be a little cooler in the outer suburbs.

[Tim Kelley]

@mstone 132024 wrote:

To be clear, I’m not necessarily saying that rebuilding this particular spot should be a priority; given the current levels of infrastructure funding I’m sure that there is lower-hanging fruit that would cost less and provide more bang for the buck. (Given funding commensurate to mode share, it might be a different story.) What I do think is that bike/ped infrastructure should be treated like car infrastructure in that there should be ongoing evaluations and tracking of outstanding needs. For example, just because a bridge has been listed as “functionally obsolete” doesn’t mean that it’s immediately torn down and replaced. But it is factored into future funding requests, may be incorporated into other projects, and is on the list when someone says “what do we do with this extra money”? Currently there just seems to be a check box, “has some kind of bike thing” and the most we can hope for is that the box gets checked. We can do better, and continuously evaluate whether the infrastructure meets current standards based on the current demand. Local governments could also do a better job of transparently evaluating bike/ped infrastructure to identify what has worked and what has not, so they don’t continue to build new deficient facilities. Most importantly, we should expect good service from our governments, and not just accept whatever we get. Is that facility better than an at grade crossing? Of course–it’s immensely better. But that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be improved, or that since we got something we should just shut up and not question whether it could be improved.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Custis Trail falls under the jurisdiction of the Department of Parks and Recreation and not under the departments who handle the planning, design, building and maintaining of streets. That’s why it was such a big win when the trails starting getting cleared. In Arlington if you want to see more attention and funding going to trails, they need to be treated more as a transportation option and not for recreation.

[consularrider]

I’m just curious if the posters who have advocated for “fixing” the 60° turn by the Lyon Village Shopping Center have any suggestions of what could realistically be done to improve the trail in the area at this point. Yes, a better mirror would help being able to see who is just about to collide with you when you have poor bailout options. The basic problem is that the Custis was built as part of the original I-66 construction and we must deal with infrastructure which has little room for modification, no matter what our desires. Unless the trail is completely rerouted to the north side of I-66 as far as the Bridge to Nowhere, the trail must somehow cross I-66 here and there is no room to expand the trail footprint. Do people envision a sweeping bridge from the top of the little hill at 17th St N with the trail then on the east side of I-66 before another bridge over Lee Highway reconnecting to the current trail behind the shopping center. This would have the benefit of also eliminating the “S” curve of death. How many millions to build? I can think of much higher cycling infrastructure priorities in the I-66 corridor.

[consularrider]

@PotomacCyclist 132038 wrote:

As far as road and trail conditions go, there might be a small amount of snow on Sunday evening. Weather Underground says there’s a 43% chance, with total accumulation likely to be less than an inch.

It will rain on Friday evening and Saturday morning, but temperatures are supposed to stay above freezing, at least in Arlington and DC. Maybe it will be a little cooler in the outer suburbs.

Well, in this far eastern “suburb,” Weather Underground has a “little” snow in our ten day forecast. <2cm tomorrow, <2 cm Saturday, 3-7 cm on each of Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, <2 next Thursday, and finishing with a whopping 20-30 cm next Friday. Now, If I can only get the Pugsley back together and get out and ride, I may be in line for the snowiest rides pointless prize in BAFS this year 'cause it doesn't look like anyone in the immediate DC area will be competing.

[PotomacCyclist]

@consularrider 132048 wrote:

Well, in this far eastern “suburb,” Weather Underground has a “little” snow in our ten day forecast. <2cm tomorrow, <2 cm Saturday, 3-7 cm on each of Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, <2 next Thursday, and finishing with a whopping 20-30 cm next Friday. Now, If I can only get the Pugsley back together and get out and ride, I may be in line for the snowiest rides pointless prize in BAFS this year 'cause it doesn't look like anyone in the immediate DC area will be competing.

The BikeArlington Forum only covers the Planet Earth, not Mars or Neptune. Sorry.

But if you can prove you are a Jedi, or a non-Replicant, then an exception might be made.

[ursus]

@consularrider 132046 wrote:

I’m just curious if the posters who have advocated for “fixing” the 60° turn by the Lyon Village Shopping Center have any suggestions of what could realistically be done to improve the trail in the area at this point. Yes, a better mirror would help being able to see who is just about to collide with you when you have poor bailout options. The basic problem is that the Custis was built as part of the original I-66 construction and we must deal with infrastructure which has little room for modification, no matter what our desires. Unless the trail is completely rerouted to the north side of I-66 as far as the Bridge to Nowhere, the trail must somehow cross I-66 here and there is no room to expand the trail footprint. Do people envision a sweeping bridge from the top of the little hill at 17th St N with the trail then on the east side of I-66 before another bridge over Lee Highway reconnecting to the current trail behind the shopping center. This would have the benefit of also eliminating the “S” curve of death. How many millions to build? I can think of much higher cycling infrastructure priorities in the I-66 corridor.

Isn’t the main problem there the fact that those heading toward Rosslyn have a retaining wall and a lot of trees which makes it hard to see who is coming?

BTW sweeping bridges is a good idea since they get covered with leaves and other debris. Seriously, have you seen the bridge which was built a few years ago over Veirs Mill Road on the Rock Creek trail? It is possible to build sweeping bridges, although this one seems more ornate than it has to be.

[consularrider]

@ursus 132055 wrote:

Isn’t the main problem there the fact that those heading toward Rosslyn have a retaining wall and a lot of trees which makes it hard to see who is coming?

Trees aren’t a problem, the retaining wall is. But since it holds back the hillside, it would be hard to eliminate.

[mstone]

@hozn 132028 wrote:

My point was merely that this is not a priority IMO because it is an example of where something is unsafe merely because people aren’t following the rules.[/quote]

Welcome to humans. Road design standards are there precisely because people are, as a whole, asshats that screw up. Good design accounts for that and reduces the possibility for harm when mistakes happen.

Quote:

Furthermore, I think the hysterics about how “if it was a road they would have fixed it!” is unfounded and “we’re not being treated like cars!” is disingenuous. And so boring.

Well, if you find it boring you could opt out. If you think that the comparison is incorrect I’d appreciate your reference to the comprehensive evaluations of bike/ped facilities that mirrors the evaluations done for car infrastructure. It’s completely possible I’ve missed it.

You’re also off base with characterizing a position as “not being treated like cars”. We don’t want to be treated like cars, but we do expect that the government that we pay for to to provide a similar quality of implementation to different modes, consistent with stated policies and objectives. It isn’t at all clear to me that asking for bike facilities to meet best practices is exactly the same thing as wanting a license plate stapled to my butt, or something. Those are two different things, and you’re the one lumping them together.

[lordofthemark]

@vern 132034 wrote:

Actually, there’s a really long list of roads like this. Georgetown Pike is a good place to start…bumper to bumper traffic, no shoulders, hairpin turns, adjacent residents who are quite wealthy or well-off, but the road has not been meaningfully changed.

VDOT is widening Rte 7, in large part to divert traffic away from Georgetown Pike. Which I think reinforces MStone’s point. The substandard roads in the area are the less important ones, to which alternatives exist or are built. Custis Trail, by contrast, is high up the chain of regional bike facilities.

[lordofthemark]

@hozn 132028 wrote:

And finally, I’m perfectly happy with the current situation. The message was really supposed to be the opposite of self-hating, so I guess that failed. I love cycling. I’d rather not be treated like a car. I don’t want someone ticketing me for rolling a stop-sign at a clear intersection when I’m on my bicycle. I don’t want a speed limit on the W&OD. I don’t want to have to buy liability insurance and register my bikes or get a license to ride them. There’s very little that sounds appealing about being treated like a car.

I will stop complaining about all the whining, though; it obviously sounds negative.

I am not happy with the current situation. There are currently no segregated bike facilities on any of the main arterials (oh, wait, Eisenhower, and Potomac if you call that a main arterial) in Alexandria, most of which are signed at 35MPH with traffic going much faster at free flow. As a result many less confident riders take sidewalks, many of which are terrible (please see the east side of King near the 30th street entrance to Fairlington, or the “worst sidewalk in the region” the midwalk over I395 on King. There are some really awful intersections, and in some cases the improvements (King and Callahan) do not provide accommodation to cyclists.

Even on the “good routes” there are issues – the difficulty crossing Shirlington Road, on the Four Mile Run Trail. That connection to the 14th Street bridge on the DC side.

Then there is motorist behavior. The folks who ignore the lane markings for turning or not turning at Eye and S. Cap. The two or three cars almost EVERY DAY when I pass by, in the bike lanes on one block of Eye.

I appreciate what many jurisdictions are doing for us, and have disagreed with MStone and Jonathan Krall who are more discontented than I (and I am certainly happier with Alexandria than I was with Annandale). But we absolutely have a long way to go, especially if we want biking to be a viable option for the somewhat less strong and bold.

As for being treated like a car, I am fine with not being allowed to ride on I395, or even on GWMP. I think that is different from wanting improvements to bike infra, and noting when it is substandard.

And again I welcome enforcement against cyclists – as long as it is focused on those who do dangerous things, and not people who fail to do a full stop at an empty intersection on Union Street.

[Author]

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