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Thread: e-Bikes - Let's talk

  1. #1191
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    Quote Originally Posted by buschwacker View Post
    max 1000W (1 hp)
    POI I understand 750w is 1hp source: https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/93295/low.pdf
    Regulating power/current is an issue as newer manufactured ebike controllers use higher quality mosfets for lower operating temperatures/greater reliability at peak power but an unintended consequence of raising the rated controller amperage higher is that it pushes a system outside the 750w CPSC limit which is also the power limit for Class 1 and 2 ebikes under the People for Bikes model ebike legislation. For example, Grin Tech's Infineon controllers start at 20a which would enable a legal build provided you stick to a 36v battery (36x20=720w), but generally they bundle 25a controllers with their direct drive motors (36x25=900w). This would still meet Virginia's current 1,000w limit for a power assisted electric bicycle, though that limit would drop to 750w if/when Virginia adopt the People for Bikes 3-class ebike legislation for the purpose of permitting Class 1 and 2 ebikes to ride on trails. AIUI this is why a speed limit which is software programmable, rather than a power limit below 1,000w which is a hardware issue, is preferable. Maybe future legislation in VA, MD, DC might include something like New York City are proposing with a 1-year credit for riders on low incomes to be able to take their ebike into the shop to replace or reprogram the controller as necessary to meet the regulated power/speed limits?
    Last edited by Dewey; 12-03-2018 at 10:31 AM.

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  3. #1192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewey View Post
    POI I understand 750w is 1hp source: https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/93295/low.pdf
    You're right - I thought Google told me 1000W = 1 hp, but that's not true either. Thanks for the correction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by n18 View Post
    Unfortunately, without restrictions, we get jerks who would abuse the trails, and then more calls to restrict them. In other states, they came up with no E-Bikes signs, and trust me, they are not pretty to look at. It disadvantage people with health issues and seniors. See this Google mages link.
    [...]
    I suppose that instead of GPS/RFID that E-Bikes could have two buttons(Road/Trail), so the user presses one depending on the situation, but there is nothing stopping jerks from using Road mode always.
    To your first point, from my relatively long, but admittedly anecdotal experience I think that ebikers are, on average, more polite bikers than non-ebikers. They're more willing to slow behind a ped, more willing to stop at reds, more likely to give lots of room when passing. I think it goes to the human inclination to not want to "waste" speed that you've "earned" -- on an ebike, you don't feel so invested in your speed, getting back up to speed is easy, and you feel like it's easy to "make up" lost time.

    On your second point, most ebikes (all that I've ridden, except CaBi Plus?) have multiple settings. They don't limit the speed, but limit the assist, which is better at making an ebike like a regular bike, anyway (because "trail" mode wouldn't be limited to 10mph all the time -- most people can get even a CaBi up to at least 15 if not 20mph on a good downhill -- not that they should, just making things alike).

    Generally, I think ebikes flatten the ability curve. Sure, there should be a restriction such that we don't give ebikers super-human abilities, but it's reasonable to give them fit-human abilities, then trust that folks on ebikes, just like fit-humans on non-ebikes, will behave appropriately.

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  6. #1194
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasgeh View Post

    Generally, I think ebikes flatten the ability curve. Sure, there should be a restriction such that we don't give ebikers super-human abilities, but it's reasonable to give them fit-human abilities, then trust that folks on ebikes, just like fit-humans on non-ebikes, will behave appropriately.
    The main issue is that ebikes are flattening the curve the wrong way. E-bikes that are assisting up to 20 and 28 mph change the average speed on trails upwards and let more riders be jerks at high speeds, even if many e-bike riders aren't jerks. This creates a safety issue by increasing the speed differential between walkers and high speed e-bikes and greatly increases the severity of accidents that occur.

    If the assist was capped at 10 or 15 mph under penalty of being 100% liable for any violation of this type of vehicle, that would be different, but that's not what the legislation has been modeled on.

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  8. #1195
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsionakides View Post
    The main issue is that ebikes are flattening the curve the wrong way. E-bikes that are assisting up to 20 and 28 mph change the average speed on trails upwards and let more riders be jerks at high speeds, even if many e-bike riders aren't jerks. This creates a safety issue by increasing the speed differential between walkers and high speed e-bikes and greatly increases the severity of accidents that occur.
    I get that some people "feel" that this is true, but I just don't believe it absent actual data. Have trail collisions gone up? Has the severity of injuries increased? Are e-bikes involved in a disproportionate number of these collisions? Show me the data and I'll change my mind, but otherwise the arguments boil down to tribalism and little else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoWheelsDC View Post
    I get that some people "feel" that this is true, but I just don't believe it absent actual data. Have trail collisions gone up? Has the severity of injuries increased? Are e-bikes involved in a disproportionate number of these collisions? Show me the data and I'll change my mind, but otherwise the arguments boil down to tribalism and little else.
    There probably isn't very good data, or really any data, on trail collisions, but the physics and science would support e-bikes causing worse, and probably more frequent, collisions than regular bikes. E-bikes weigh more than a regular bike which increases the force of a collision and would increase the severity of injuries. Traveling at higher speeds increases the force of an accident exponentially, which also increases the severity of injuries in that accident. Speed differentials causes higher proportions of crashes in automobiles, and that can probably be a reasonable proxy for MUPs.

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  12. #1197
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsionakides View Post
    There probably isn't very good data, or really any data, on trail collisions, but the physics and science would support e-bikes causing worse, and probably more frequent, collisions than regular bikes. E-bikes weigh more than a regular bike which increases the force of a collision and would increase the severity of injuries. Traveling at higher speeds increases the force of an accident exponentially, which also increases the severity of injuries in that accident. Speed differentials causes higher proportions of crashes in automobiles, and that can probably be a reasonable proxy for MUPs.
    I just checked the past few weeks of my rides on Strava in which I have ridden a gravel bike, my commuter bike, a single speed, CaBi, CaBi Plus and a Lime-E.

    My average speed on a CaBi is usually a bit below 9 mph. Most of my CaBi Plus rides have been around 10-11 mph. I was faster going up hill on a single speed. I was way faster going up lots of hills on my gravel bike. I usually average around 13 on my commuter bike. My fastest CaBi Plus Ride averaged 14 mph which was going mostly downhill when most trail users were still at home in bed.

    So at least in my case I am only slightly faster most of the time on an E-Bike and still slower than on my commuter. I go about the same speed, but itís easier and allows me to show up places not sweaty.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  14. #1198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judd View Post
    I just checked the past few weeks of my rides on Strava in which I have ridden a gravel bike, my commuter bike, a single speed, CaBi, CaBi Plus and a Lime-E.

    My average speed on a CaBi is usually a bit below 9 mph. Most of my CaBi Plus rides have been around 10-11 mph. I was faster going up hill on a single speed. I was way faster going up lots of hills on my gravel bike. I usually average around 13 on my commuter bike. My fastest CaBi Plus Ride averaged 14 mph which was going mostly downhill when most trail users were still at home in bed.

    So at least in my case I am only slightly faster most of the time on an E-Bike and still slower than on my commuter. I go about the same speed, but it’s easier and allows me to show up places not sweaty.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My morning e-bike commute today was 3 minutes SLOWER than my non-e-bike morning commute yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoWheelsDC View Post
    My morning e-bike commute today was 3 minutes SLOWER than my non-e-bike morning commute yesterday.
    Sounds reckless.

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    Sounds like TwoWheels is doing something wrong!

    I had the pleasure of drafting a guy yesterday who was wearing jeans and loafers on the W&OD and cruising at 25mph, until he turned off just before Vienna. That's a nice drafting speed; I love it when I can benefit from all that free wattage too.

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