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Thread: e-Bikes - Let's talk

  1. #921
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaEbike View Post
    My point above is that beginner, casual, average, and even most above average riders can't maintain 28mph for miles on end either on an e-bike (as would be legal under CA's class system) and so it's disingenuous to claim that as fact and as a reason for advocating a policy against them. In fact, from what I've seen, it seems that there are really just 3 e-bike riders that people generally have a problem with: the solar e-bike guy, gear crusher, and full face moto helmet guy. And it seems that blanket positions are being taken on e-bikes based on those 3. I'll say that I've personally encountered more than 3 unassisted bike riders on my regular commute that regularly ride irresponsibly.
    Ok, I've never ridden with any of those guys and never seen "gear crusher" or the moto guy. The few datapoints I have are people that either I know (riding a Specialized Turbo) and a couple others I've met along the trail (riding other class-3 bikes) that have been kind enough to let me draft them. These guys had no problem maintaining at least 26mph for long stretches of flat W&OD. So those are my data points; I know that not everyone on an e-bike rides like that, even a class-3, but my observation is that on these bikes it doesn't require any elite level of fitness to maintain speeds comfortably north of 25mph. Whereas it definitely requires an elite level of fitness to do that unsheltered for more than a couple minutes on a regular bicycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huskerdont View Post
    I have yet to see one good argument for allowing the more powerful eBikes on the trails (Class 3 or whatever they will be called.)
    Legal Class 3 ebikes are sometimes called speed pedelecs, but concerns apply equally (more so) to unrestricted ebikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    Specialized Turbo...on these bikes it doesn't require any elite level of fitness to maintain speeds comfortably north of 25mph.
    Nice bike! I think there is a market among distance commuters for faster speed pedelecs but I would note the continued passing of 3-Class ebike legislation that legalizes Class 1 and 2 ebikes on trails from California in 2015 to 7 states by the end of this year with another 7 states now considering it, has encouraged bicycle and motor manufacturers to introduce more 20mph limited Class 1 pedelec models to the US market. This year Specialized introduced its first Class 1 pedelecs the Turbo Vado and Como where some of the 2.0 and 3.0 models use a detuned 250w version of the same Brose motor on the 350w Class 3 rated 3.0, 5.0 and 6.0 models, Giant have followed suit adding the Explore E+3/Liv Amiti-E+2 where its previous ebike line up was all Class 3, Trek are building on the Electra Townie Go! ebike line adding the Commute and Loft Class 1 models, Piaggio have brought over its European Wi-Bike, and the upcoming Yamaha Power Assist line of 4 models are all Class 1 pedelecs. I expect these companies looked at sales figures in countries where both 15mph and 28mph ebikes are legal and are betting more 20mph Class 1 pedelecs will be sold here.
    Last edited by Dewey; 11-17-2017 at 02:06 PM.

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    Who's up for a word problem?

    I've been trying to calculate the speed of the full throttle e-bike that passed me alongside the Pentagon Monday night. I guess it was Class 2, because the rider wasn't pedaling as he/she accelerated past me in the bridge construction zone, without warning (out of ignorance, I'm sure, not malice, but I digress). By the time I got almost to the guard booth near the 9/11 memorial, I could look up to the AF Memorial and see the e-bike (it's taillights) nearing the intersection of Columbia Pike and Southgate. Google Maps estimates that to be a little less than half a mile away. Since I was going about 12mph myself, how fast was the e-bike going to put that much distance between us? Hint: I have no idea

    I doubt the rider is on Strava (I'm not) but he/she would have passed the AF memorial about 6:50pm on Monday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyRider View Post
    Who's up for a word problem?

    I've been trying to calculate the speed of the full throttle e-bike that passed me alongside the Pentagon Monday night. I guess it was Class 2, because the rider wasn't pedaling as he/she accelerated past me in the bridge construction zone, without warning (out of ignorance, I'm sure, not malice, but I digress). By the time I got almost to the guard booth near the 9/11 memorial, I could look up to the AF Memorial and see the e-bike (it's taillights) nearing the intersection of Columbia Pike and Southgate. Google Maps estimates that to be a little less than half a mile away. Since I was going about 12mph myself, how fast was the e-bike going to put that much distance between us? Hint: I have no idea

    I doubt the rider is on Strava (I'm not) but he/she would have passed the AF memorial about 6:50pm on Monday.
    In order to answer, I need one of two additional pieces of information: (1) how far did you travel (at 12 mph) between the pass and the final sighting, or (2) how much time elapsed between the pass and the final sighting?

  7. #925
    lordofthemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyRider View Post
    Who's up for a word problem?

    I've been trying to calculate the speed of the full throttle e-bike that passed me alongside the Pentagon Monday night. I guess it was Class 2, because the rider wasn't pedaling as he/she accelerated past me in the bridge construction zone, without warning (out of ignorance, I'm sure, not malice, but I digress). By the time I got almost to the guard booth near the 9/11 memorial, I could look up to the AF Memorial and see the e-bike (it's taillights) nearing the intersection of Columbia Pike and Southgate. Google Maps estimates that to be a little less than half a mile away. Since I was going about 12mph myself, how fast was the e-bike going to put that much distance between us? Hint: I have no idea

    I doubt the rider is on Strava (I'm not) but he/she would have passed the AF memorial about 6:50pm on Monday.

    Given that the ebike rules are different in Europe, the jokes, they write themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyRider View Post
    Who's up for a word problem?

    I've been trying to calculate the speed of the full throttle e-bike that passed me alongside the Pentagon Monday night. I guess it was Class 2, because the rider wasn't pedaling as he/she accelerated past me in the bridge construction zone, without warning (out of ignorance, I'm sure, not malice, but I digress). By the time I got almost to the guard booth near the 9/11 memorial, I could look up to the AF Memorial and see the e-bike (it's taillights) nearing the intersection of Columbia Pike and Southgate. Google Maps estimates that to be a little less than half a mile away. Since I was going about 12mph myself, how fast was the e-bike going to put that much distance between us? Hint: I have no idea

    I doubt the rider is on Strava (I'm not) but he/she would have passed the AF memorial about 6:50pm on Monday.
    Very rough estimate: 27 MPH

    According to Google Maps, you covered 0.4 miles (from the bridge over 110 to the guard booth near the AF Memorial) in the time that the e-bike traveled 0.9 (to the intersection of Columbia Pike and Southgate). 12MPH * (0.9/0.4) = 27 MPH

    Presumably one could get a better estimate using distance data more accurate than a tenth of a mile, but this is probably within 20%
    Last edited by scoot; 11-16-2017 at 02:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scoot View Post
    Very rough estimate: 27 MPH

    According to Google Maps, you covered 0.4 miles (from the bridge over 110 to the guard booth near the AF Memorial) in the time that the e-bike traveled 0.9 (to the intersection of Columbia Pike and Southgate). 12MPH * (0.9/0.4) = 27 MPH

    Presumably one could get a better estimate using distance data more accurate than a tenth of a mile, but this is probably within 20%
    Yeah, that was my guesstimate -- in excess of 20mph. I mentioned this because I got the impression from NovaEBike's post that ebikes that can be operated throttle only (no pedaling) max out at 20mph. This rider was not pedaling when he/she passed me, and was not really dressed to do so once out of my sight (wool coat, office attire, sitting bolt upright). What qualifies as "pedaling" to get speeds over 20mph? Just making the pedals move to disable the governor? Or actually contributing power?

    Also - I doubt this rider is on Strava. If someone can check Strava for the fastest ever stretch between the 110 bridge overpass to the intersection at southgate road, I could see how bad my estimates are. I've been doing this commute for years and I'm seen my share of fast riders, but this one was cookin'.
    Last edited by EasyRider; 11-16-2017 at 03:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyRider View Post
    I got the impression from NovaEBike's post that ebikes that can be operated throttle only (no pedaling) max out at 20mph.
    That is true for legit Class 2 and 3 ebikes, if it has a throttle it's supposed to cut out at 20mph then on Class 3 ebikes the rider has to use pedal assist up to 28mph. But there are some exceptions, for some reason Prodecotech have a 28mph throttle and pedal assist ebike, the Outlaw 1200, that technically isn't a Class 3 ebike because the throttle can be used up to the max speed. An unrestricted and illegal for street use ebike may use a throttle for when power exceeds the gearing/capacity for the rider to keep up with the motor, some such riders talk about 'clown pedalling' to trick a pedal cadence sensor into turning on the motor but could also be an anti-social slur on legal pedelec riders, like I said in a previous post we're the Rodney Dangerfield of cyclists.

    Here's a description of some of the different types of pedal assist torque sensors, pedal cadence sensors might measure rotational speed or act as a simple power on/off switch if it detects the pedals turning, they vary significantly in price, a quality bottom bracket torque sensor might be $240 while a spring gauge on rear derailleur hanger torque sensor might cost only a few dollars but require a frame designed to use it, and a simple clip-on pedal cadence sensor might be $24, some quality systems like Bosch may use a combination of 2 or 3 types of sensors plus a wheel speed sensor all feeding into the controller's software.
    Last edited by Dewey; 11-16-2017 at 05:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewey View Post
    a 28mph throttle and pedal assist ebike, the Outlaw 1200, that technically isn't a Class 3 ebike because the throttle can be used up to the max speed.
    lol


    The technology is really neat, I enjoyed learning about the sensors.

    It's a shame that to get people to buy e-bikes, companies have to make them capable of unassisted speeds that are twice as fast as a fit 20 something can maintain for more than 5 minutes of effort, and/or market them like they are 1%ers. I hope the industry doesn't blow too much of it's lobbying budget on the ebike issue. I know that acceptance positively impacts their bottom line, but still. Stuff like this only deepens my sense that classes of ebike are pretty meaningless in the real world, no? At the end of the day, these are unlicensed vehicles.
    Last edited by EasyRider; 11-16-2017 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huskerdont View Post
    Right, but eBikes are becoming more and more common and are looking to be the next big thing, so saying there are only three poor examples right now is only relevant to now, not to the future. That's why people are discussing what approaches to take toward policies for future trail use. For some of us, current regulations, in addition to being all over the place, appear to be trailing the technology and its likely proliferation.
    True, though I'll note that the 3 bad examples have been riding for at least the last 3 years. A lot of "newbies" are riding ebikes, and somehow, we're not adding the bad examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by huskerdont View Post
    I have yet to see one good argument for allowing the more powerful eBikes on the trails (Class 3 or whatever they will be called.) One person's argument seems to boil down to "regular bikes can go fast, so why not allow everything on the trails, and more of them because more fast bikes on the trails makes everyone safer," which is frankly nonsense, and another argument seems to be that faster eBikes (however they're classified) really aren't all that fast, which seems to ignore the evidence to the contrary.
    My argument is this: Some people will bike only if they can go the speed limits on many roads (i.e. 25 mph), which is possible with Class 3 ebikes. Class 3 ebikes should be allowed on trails FOR NOW because there are many routes that REQUIRE the use of a trail to safely get from A to B on a bike (exhibit A: how do you get to the Memorial Bridge? from anywhere in Virginia). I'm perfectly fine revisiting the policy for Class 3 ebikes after some amount of time to let the infrastructure catch up and to have more data to rely on.

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