Likes Likes:  921
Dislikes Dislikes:  11
ELITE ELITE:  42
Page 102 of 116 FirstFirst ... 25292100101102103104112 ... LastLast
Results 1,011 to 1,020 of 1157

Thread: e-Bikes - Let's talk

  1. #1011
    hozn's Avatar
    hozn is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Arlington
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dasgeh View Post
    Really? Given that a large portion of the early adopters of e-bikes have been family bikers, you're all for forcing people with kids on their cargo bikes on the Memorial and Key Bridges?

    I ride on Lee Hwy daily, and I would not ride on Memorial Bridge in the travel lanes (except when closed to cars - then it's awesome). There are probably times I'd be ok on Key, but not the majority of the time.
    Well, I was only half-serious and only talking about the high-power-output ("class-3") e-bikes, and specifically referring to the "class-3-makes-people-comfortable-in-traffic" argument. I think we have quite different perspectives on this, though, as cargo e-bikes account for a tiny fraction of the e-bikes I have ever encountered and 0% of the ones I see on a regular basis on my commute. I guess there are lots of people riding box/cargo e-bikes into (or out of) the city with kids? That surprises me a bit, but I'm sure there are home/work/daycare geographic configurations where that makes sense.

    From the length of this thread, I'll conclude that we lack some data that would inform the discussion on where e-bikes should and shouldn't be permitted (and how classes factor into this).

    A few that might be nice to know:
    - What are the median speeds of traditional and e-bike cyclists?
    - What are the accident rates (cyclist-cyclist, cyclist-pedestrian, etc.) for traditional and e-bike cyclists?
    - What are the types/classes of e-bikes actually being purchased and used for commuting?

    Given the lack of data, I'd default to voting for anything that implements the class-based guidelines of California and other states. I'm also perfectly fine with the status quo, though I recognize that e-bike usage is really taking off and I suspect the status quo won't be acceptable to most trail users for much longer.
    Last edited by hozn; 02-15-2018 at 11:23 AM.

  2. #1012
    lordofthemark's Avatar
    lordofthemark is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The forgotten corner of Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    2,924
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dasgeh View Post
    Why force a huge detour on ebike riders? That's just going to push more people off of bikes and into cars (making the city less safe for people on bikes) or have more people ignore the law.
    It wouldn't force a detour on Class 1 ebike riders. Nor on Class 3 ebike riders who are willing ride the general travel lanes (unless you mean that detouring from 14th Street bridge to memorial bridge is a huge detour) It would be a problem for that subset of Class 3 riders who are uncomfortable with the general travel lanes on Memorial or Key, or who need to get from NoVa to parts of DC where not taking 14th street bridge means a big detour. That is unfortunate, but I think still a reasonable compromise. Nothing is going to make everyone happy or solve every policy problem. I think keeping class 3 ebikes separate from pedestrians, which is the law in California, a law that was strongly supported by the ebike industry, IIUC, is probably necessary (note, this would be a decision by the govt of DC, and I have no direct say, other than as a general supporter of WABA)

  3. #1013
    Judd's Avatar
    Judd is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Arlington
    Posts
    2,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dasgeh View Post
    Really? Given that a large portion of the early adopters of e-bikes have been family bikers, you're all for forcing people with kids on their cargo bikes on the Memorial and Key Bridges?
    I think we are well aware of Hans long time advocacy against family and children, especially on bikes.

    His use of a smiley emoticon was a clear indicator that he hopes every family biker including himself is merciless mowed down.

  4. #1014
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunyata View Post
    I have to ask... Why can you not ride an e-bike across Key Bridge in the standard travel lanes? I can ride a regular bike there and I can drive a car there (though I never would), so why not an e-bike? One could also say the same about Memorial Bridge... Correct? So what is it that differentiates an e-bike in those situations? Sure, it might not be as comfortable as riding the trail across, but it is not illegal, unless I am missing something.

    (Not that I am necessarily against e-bikes as transportation vehicles. More people on bikes is usually a good thing, as long as they are not jerks. I am just curious as to why lotm seems to think there is no legal way to get across the Potomac for e-bikes as the law currently stands.)
    It's not illegal to ride an ebike on the bridge travel lanes but not something that I feel comfortable doing on my <20mph 250w Class 1 pedelec in the absence of a striped bicycle lane. Honestly for a few dollars of paint Memorial Bridge can stand going on a road diet, it shouldn't take much away from the money congress has promised for the refurb, this was suggested by WABA a few years ago but was rejected by NPS with no reason given. DDOT appears to be backtracking on widening the sidewalk on Roosevelt bridge in the upcoming bridge works, and won't paint a bike lane on Key. The sidewalk paths are at present the only way I feel safe crossing the Potomac bridges so I would very much appreciate it be made legal for Class 1 and 2 ebikes. If you feel otherwise you are entitled to that opinion but then please agree with a reasonable accommodation like a bike lane on Memorial or Key if you believe that slower Class 1 and 2 ebike commuters must ride in the road.
    Last edited by Dewey; 02-15-2018 at 12:53 PM.

  5. #1015
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    It wouldn't force a detour on Class 1 ebike riders.
    It would be easier for me to commute south around Ft Myer to a future Long Bridge bicycle crossing after they finish Phase 2 of the Washington Blvd trail (Winter 2018/19), the Hoffman Boston connector under 395 (2022/23), and a PBL along Army Navy Drive to Long Bridge park (?), but all that's a few years away.
    Last edited by Dewey; 02-15-2018 at 01:35 PM.

  6. #1016
    Judd's Avatar
    Judd is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Arlington
    Posts
    2,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dewey View Post
    It's not illegal to ride an ebike on the bridge travel lanes but not something that I feel comfortable doing on my <20mph 250w Class 1 pedelec in the absence of a striped bicycle lane. Honestly for a few dollars of paint Memorial Bridge can stand going on a road diet, it shouldn't take much away from the money congress has promised for the refurb, this was suggested by WABA a few years ago but was rejected by NPS with no reason given. DDOT appears to be backtracking on widening the sidewalk on Roosevelt bridge in the upcoming bridge works, and won't paint a bike lane on Key. The sidewalk paths are at present the only way I feel safe crossing the Potomac bridges so I would very much appreciate it be made legal for Class 1 and 2 ebikes. If you feel otherwise you are entitled to that opinion but then please agree with a reasonable accommodation like a bike lane on Memorial or Key if you believe that slower Class 1 and 2 ebike commuters must ride in the road.
    I don't want you riding a Class 1 pedelec on these bridges without dedicated infrastructure either. The eBikes that I've ridden (almost all class 1) are zippy, but I wouldn't take them on Memorial or Key Bridge unless it was my only option, since they won't get you up to the same speed as traffic.

    For folks that haven't ever tried an e-bike, I highly recommend signing up for a Jump account. If you use offer code JUMP4WABA, you'll get two free rides. Riding a Jump has helped shape and moderate my opinion on where e-bikes fit in the mix of transportation options and infrastructure.

  7. #1017
    hozn's Avatar
    hozn is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Arlington
    Posts
    3,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dewey View Post
    It's not illegal to ride an ebike on the bridge travel lanes but not something that I feel comfortable doing on my <20mph 250w Class 1 pedelec in the absence of a striped bicycle lane. Honestly for a few dollars of paint Memorial Bridge can stand going on a road diet, it shouldn't take much away from the money congress has promised for the refurb, this was suggested by WABA a few years ago but was rejected by NPS with no reason given. DDOT appears to be backtracking on widening the sidewalk on Roosevelt bridge in the upcoming bridge works, and won't paint a bike lane on Key. The sidewalk paths are at present the only way I feel safe crossing the Potomac bridges so I would very much appreciate it be made legal for Class 1 and 2 ebikes. If you feel otherwise you are entitled to that opinion but then please agree with a reasonable accommodation like a bike lane on Memorial or Key if you believe that slower Class 1 and 2 ebike commuters must ride in the road.
    Yeah, this probably serves reiterating, since my stance above was maybe not very clear, but I certainly support class 1 & 2 ebikes being allowed on any MUPs to include sidewalks on the bridges, etc. I think it's hard to imagine how these are a trail hazard and clearly they enable transportation for all sorts of additional cyclists -- from families with box bikes to people that just need (or want) to get to work with less exertion. I don't think anyone on the forum has any issue with these e-assist bikes that are riding with others at normal [cyclist] commuter speeds. The only sticky issue -- to me, anyway -- with e-bike legality are the e-bikes that are clearly designed to go much faster (and are being ridden much faster) than the type-1 or type-2 e-bikes. The argument here has been that these 28+ mph bikes are necessary to ride comfortably in traffic, which is why I commented that I'm all for them riding in traffic across the bridges. :-)

    (I think the prevailing counter-argument here is that enforcement would be too difficult, so we can only have an all-or-nothing policy. I'd still vote to have the rules even if I knew it was unlikely they'd be enforced. There would hopefully at least be some market encouragement to push the MUP-legal bikes.)
    Last edited by hozn; 02-15-2018 at 01:32 PM.

  8. #1018
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Vienna VA
    Posts
    31
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    From the length of this thread, I'll conclude that we lack some data that would inform the discussion on where e-bikes should and shouldn't be permitted (and how classes factor into this).

    A few that might be nice to know:
    - What are the median speeds of traditional and e-bike cyclists?
    - What are the accident rates (cyclist-cyclist, cyclist-pedestrian, etc.) for traditional and e-bike cyclists?
    - What are the types/classes of e-bikes actually being purchased and used for commuting?

    Given the lack of data, I'd default to voting for anything that implements the class-based guidelines of California and other states. I'm also perfectly fine with the status quo, though I recognize that e-bike usage is really taking off and I suspect the status quo won't be acceptable to most trail users for much longer.
    I'd be happy to let you/anyone use my data from strava to start to put some factual detail to this debate. I have a class 3 ebike and have been commuting 4-5 days/week from Vienna to DC since July. I'm also participating in FS on Team 13, Brandon F so you get quick glimpses into data from the distance, elevation, speed graph.

  9. #1019
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    MUP-legal bikes
    Like these two?

  10. #1020
    lordofthemark's Avatar
    lordofthemark is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The forgotten corner of Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    2,924
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    Yeah, this probably serves reiterating, since my stance above was maybe not very clear, but I certainly support class 1 & 2 ebikes being allowed on any MUPs to include sidewalks on the bridges, etc. I think it's hard to imagine how these are a trail hazard and clearly they enable transportation for all sorts of additional cyclists -- from families with box bikes to people that just need (or want) to get to work with less exertion. I don't think anyone on the forum has any issue with these e-assist bikes that are riding with others at normal [cyclist] commuter speeds. The only sticky issue -- to me, anyway -- with e-bike legality are the e-bikes that are clearly designed to go much faster (and are being ridden much faster) than the type-1 or type-2 e-bikes. The argument here has been that these 28+ mph bikes are necessary to ride comfortably in traffic, which is why I commented that I'm all for them riding in traffic across the bridges. :-)

    (I think the prevailing counter-argument here is that enforcement would be too difficult, so we can only have an all-or-nothing policy. I'd still vote to have the rules even if I knew it was unlikely they'd be enforced. There would hopefully at least be some market encouragement to push the MUP-legal bikes.)
    As far as I know all current laws that ban or allow certain classes of ebikes, or ebikes in general, apply to MUTs and MUPs and "sidewalks" indiscriminately (where biking of any kind is allowed on the sidewalk). I am not sure that is the optimal policy regarding class 1 ebikes. I see a strong argument for allowing them on MUTs, even not so wide MUTs like the MVT. But I would be very leary to have them on many sidewalks where human powered bikes are now allowed. In the case of the bridge crossings, I am not sure they belong equally on all the sidepaths. Of the existing ones, TR (narrow but lightly used?) and Memorial may be the best. 14th street is narrow and crowded, but gets a lot of human powered cyclists going too fast anyway. Where I would most want to see DC retain a ban would be on the Key Bridge. Of course it would be great to see seg infra, but I know little about the issues with lane widths and space opportunities on that bridge (or Memorial).

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •