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Thread: Missed connection

  1. #5191
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    Hey Mr. Head Down in your Phone with Headphones on. It's a bad idea to walk exactly along the yellow line on the Ft. Cass Trail downhill, especially on the curve where the vines narrow the trail. I hope you lived through your commute.

  2. #5192
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    lordofthemark is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
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    Me, at the NE corner of King and Beauregard, turned to cross in the crosswalk across Beauregard

    You: The passenger in the pick up or SUV (I don't remember) with the window rolled down, blocking the crosswalk, waiting to turn on red, while the ped signal for the crosswalk you were blocking was "go"

    Me; "Its illegal to block a crosswalk"

    You: "so what?"

    You are the perfect example of local motorist arrogance, and why its so hard for me to get worked up about scooter riders, bad cyclists, and the rest. I do intend to mention your behavior as an example, when speaking to public officials.

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  4. #5193
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    Me, riding northeast along the ART, coming off the pedestrian bridge near the skating pavilion.

    You, Park Police Officer driving his cruiser southwest bound on the ART, coming onto the same pedestrian bridge at 15-20 mph.

    Me, flat palm out, "what are you doing shrug".

    You, after I pass, window rolled down, hand out, hitting your attention getter twice like you wanted me to come back.

    Me, you're crazy if you think I'm turning around and coming back when you're too lazy to even get out of the car.

    I did call and report the incident to the SGT on duty at the Anacostia station. She asked the pertinent questions and said shed try to fin the officer to have an appropriate discussion.

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  6. #5194
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    Me, at the NE corner of King and Beauregard, turned to cross in the crosswalk across Beauregard

    You: The passenger in the pick up or SUV (I don't remember) with the window rolled down, blocking the crosswalk, waiting to turn on red, while the ped signal for the crosswalk you were blocking was "go"

    Me; "Its illegal to block a crosswalk"

    You: "so what?"
    This post piqued my curiosity so I decided to gather some data at this location over the weekend. Near the end of my Saturday morning ride, I stopped and collected 16 minutes of video (8 traffic light cycles) of vehicles turning from SB Walter Reed / Beauregard onto WB King Street. I hung out on the hill near Wells Fargo behind the large sign, and I do not believe my presence affected driver behavior in any way. I got around to analyzing the video this afternoon.

    Some numbers:
    37 drivers entered the right-turn lane during this 16-minute period.
    32 turned on red, the other 5 did so on green or yellow lights.
    20 of the 32 (63%) RTOR drivers did not stop at all anywhere during their turns.

    Of the 12 drivers who did stop their vehicles somewhere:

    Only 1 vehicle stopped before the front axle crossed SL
    Another 2 vehicles stopped beyond SL, but before front bumper crossed CW0
    1 other vehicle stopped while barely across CW0, not blocking much of crosswalk
    7 vehicles blocked at least half the crosswalk while stopped.
    1 driver proceeded through SL, CW0, and beyond CW1 before stopping (thus not blocking crosswalk while stopped).

    (SL: stop line, CW0: northeastern edge of crosswalk, CW1: southwestern edge of crosswalk)

    So 29 of 32 (91%) RTOR drivers failed to stop before entering the crosswalk.

    Looking at the three drivers who did stop before the CW: One was a box truck, the only commercial vehicle in the sample. Perhaps his elevated position offered him a sufficient view of King St traffic that other drivers did not have. Another was a woman driving a blue Hyundai who stopped for almost a full minute and did not appear to be seeking an opportunity to RTOR (although she did eventually do so before the light cycle changed). As for the one driver who stopped even before SL? Extenuating circumstance: he was stuck waiting for one of the seven crosswalk-blockers to clear in front of him.

    Three pedestrians used the northside crosswalk along King Street during the 16-min video. All three crossed from east to west. One crossed in front of the Hyundai driver 33 seconds after she had stopped. The other two, a couple, crossed without vehicular interactions (although one of the 20 non-stopping drivers had gone through while they had been crossing the NB lanes of Beauregard).

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  8. #5195
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    Summary / TLDR:

    The vast majority of RTOR drivers at King & Beauregard either don't stop at all or else they block the crosswalk while stopped. It is true that most drivers cannot see sufficiently down King Street to identify a safe RTOR opportunity from behind the stop line. In this situation, most drivers opt to block the crosswalk while scanning traffic rather than wait for a green.

    The only practical way to improve this problem in the short term would seem to be No Turn on Red. Even then, I would expect poor compliance with that signage unless heavily enforced.

  9. #5196
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    I wonder if you can enter a video into the record at a public meeting

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  11. #5197
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    Steve O is offline I spend all day thinking about bikes and talking to people on the internet about them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoot View Post
    The only practical way to improve this problem in the short term would seem to be No Turn on Red. Even then, I would expect poor compliance with that signage unless heavily enforced.
    When the No Turn on Red was implemented at N. Wakefield and Fairfax Drive/I-66 on-ramp in Arlington, there was a short period of time that APD gave out warnings (they did not ticket at first, which to me seems reasonable). My experience lately has been that compliance there is high--not perfect, but high. That said, I believe many of the users of that intersection are regulars who use it every day. Once they learned about the NTOR it became habitual to wait. On occasions when I have noted drivers edging forward and I point out the sign, they immediately stop and wait. They were non-compliant because they did not notice, not because they were deliberately ignoring.

    There are several NTOR intersections along the Custis in Rosslyn. My best guess from observation is that regular users of these intersections almost always comply. The non-compliant are people who do not see the NTOR signs because they are looking at traffic. I think the percentage of drivers who deliberately ignore NTOR is small.

    I do not know how many of the users at the King & Beauregard intersection would be regulars. My guess is fewer, which might make normalizing "wait for green" more difficult.

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  13. #5198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    N. Wakefield and Fairfax Drive/I-66 on-ramp in Arlington ... On occasions when I have noted drivers edging forward and I point out the sign, they immediately stop and wait. They were non-compliant because they did not notice, not because they were deliberately ignoring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    There are several NTOR intersections along the Custis in Rosslyn. My best guess from observation is that regular users of these intersections almost always comply. The non-compliant are people who do not see the NTOR signs because they are looking at traffic. I think the percentage of drivers who deliberately ignore NTOR is small.
    Interesting. I suspect you are correct. It would require a more extensive effort to test that one.

    I would certainly hypothesize that the percentage of drivers who run reds turning left or going straight is far smaller than the number who will make RTORs in violation of red arrows or NTOR signage. If true, the question would be: why? It could be that they do in fact intend to comply with traffic controls. But on the other hand, the risks of running those signals are far more obvious to drivers than the risks of RTOR, so it could also simply reflect an aversion to extremely damaging collisions such as T-Bones.

    The Wakefield drivers' reactions are a good sign, but I would not be too confident that this behavior constitutes evidence of a failure to notice the NTOR sign. The drivers might have been aware of it and thought they could turn safely anyway (as they had previously), but upon being called out upon it also don't think it's worth a possible confrontation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    I do not know how many of the users at the King & Beauregard intersection would be regulars. My guess is fewer, which might make normalizing "wait for green" more difficult.
    The calendar and clock also come into play here. At rush hour, King & Beauregard may have more regular users than it does at 9:30am on a Saturday.

  14. #5199
    lordofthemark's Avatar
    lordofthemark is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoot View Post
    Summary / TLDR:

    The vast majority of RTOR drivers at King & Beauregard either don't stop at all or else they block the crosswalk while stopped. It is true that most drivers cannot see sufficiently down King Street to identify a safe RTOR opportunity from behind the stop line. In this situation, most drivers opt to block the crosswalk while scanning traffic rather than wait for a green.

    The only practical way to improve this problem in the short term would seem to be No Turn on Red. Even then, I would expect poor compliance with that signage unless heavily enforced.

    Glad to see you confirmed my impressions (I do cross N to S, BTW, and often see peds doing so)

    My suggestions

    1. Implement No Right Turn on Red, with requisite enforcement

    2. Enforce not blocking the crosswalk - that is a driver culture change we need even at places where no right turn on red will never be implemented.

    3. Get the discourse to reflect that ALL categories of road users - drivers, cyclists, pedestrians and scooter users, engage in violations of the law, sometimes dangerous violations. Stop singling out particular classes of users (such as scooters or cyclists) as scofflaws, and using that to make unwarranted policy decisions. If there is a problem with our dockless program, explore ways to fix it before we consider ending it.

  15. #5200
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    baiskeli is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
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    You: a Capitol Police officer riding a bike, running a red to cross Independence Avenue. Apparently not responding to an emergency or anything like that, just running a red because you can.

    Me: SMH

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