Likes Likes:  33
Dislikes Dislikes:  3
ELITE ELITE:  0
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 41

Thread: Bollard placement kills cyclist in James County

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    240
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mstone View Post
    Weird how much your later posts differ from your original post. To refresh your memory: "The bollard placement did not kill the rider. Lack of attention, riding too fast, or something similar resulted in the cyclist crashing into a bollard and his death." Again, that's not a call for "facts", that's a call for a specific conclusion based completely on speculation in the absence of supporting facts.

    "something similar" is a specific conclusion? The bollard in and of itself, nor its placement alone could possibly cause a death. Unless the bollard was somehow launched at the rider, he had to be moving toward it, fall on it, or something similar to result in a death. Lack of the person hitting the bollard or the bollard hitting the person, with some velocity, there is no possible outcome of death.

  2. #22
    lordofthemark's Avatar
    lordofthemark is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The forgotten corner of Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    3,411
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hancockbs View Post
    Now you've gone to completely different issues. I could argue the gun did not kill the person in your scenario, as a gun can't do anything by itself (much like a bollard), but that's a totally different argument. I will say that in all of these stated cases, you are providing an action by another party that caused a death. I'm fine with contributing the death to an action and/or the person generating the action, be that the party who died or the party that caused their death. I'm not okay with contributing the death to a non-moving inanimate object. If someone crashed and hit their head on the ground, you might contend the ground caused their death. I would not.

    The headline says the bollard PLACEMENT caused the death. IE a human action. To place a non moving inanimate object in a dangerous spot. Instead of guns, would you prefer land mines? If many people walked through a minefield and survived, and one person was killed, would you say they were not killed by the mine? Would you quibble over minefield placement? Or would you deny that it was the minefield at all, because so many survived it?

  3. #23
    lordofthemark's Avatar
    lordofthemark is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The forgotten corner of Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    3,411
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hancockbs View Post
    "something similar" is a specific conclusion? The bollard in and of itself, nor its placement alone could possibly cause a death. Unless the bollard was somehow launched at the rider, he had to be moving toward it, fall on it, or something similar to result in a death. Lack of the person hitting the bollard or the bollard hitting the person, with some velocity, there is no possible outcome of death.
    A bike trail without bike riders moving on it is sort of a useless bike trail, IMO.

  4. #24
    lordofthemark's Avatar
    lordofthemark is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The forgotten corner of Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    3,411
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hancockbs View Post
    Against my better judgement, I'll continue the conversation. To say that the bollard caused your death in that case would be inaccurate IMO. The bollard contributed to your death, certainly, but I would say the cause was closer to you not stopping to put away the ID and cord, thereby causing the hazard that resulted in your death by hitting the bollard. Perhaps that is semantics, but I prefer to "blame" the action rather than the inanimate and non-moving object.

    Except that what actually happened was that despite my error, I did not die, because no one insanely placed a bollard there.

    The point is that humans make mistakes. Setting things up so that a mistake is fatal is killing them.

  5. Dislikes Hancockbs disliked this post
  6. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    534
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Found a YouTube video showing a similar bridge with similar bollards on the same trail. It seems that they are all constructed the same way after seeing several bridges. All wooden bridges, and earlier in the day there was light rain for 30 minutes. The side bollards are awkward to get around.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bollard2.jpg 
Views:	55 
Size:	21.4 KB 
ID:	21002

  7. Likes Steve O liked this post
  8. #26
    Steve O's Avatar
    Steve O is offline 5000+ Posts? The first step to beating addiction is admitting you have one.
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Pentagon City in Arlington VA
    Posts
    5,189
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by n18 View Post
    Found a YouTube video showing a similar bridge with similar bollards on the same trail. It seems that they are all constructed the same way after seeing several bridges. All wooden bridges, and earlier in the day there was light rain for 30 minutes. The side bollards are awkward to get around.
    I believe this may be the one.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	the bollard.JPG 
Views:	49 
Size:	47.7 KB 
ID:	21005

  9. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    534
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    I believe this may be the one.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	the bollard.JPG 
Views:	49 
Size:	47.7 KB 
ID:	21005
    Unfortunately not the exact one. See this Google Maps link that shows where the cyclist went in the video. In the video, at time index 3:07:18, the cyclist turns right(to the south), and the trail branches into 2 direction 10 seconds later(east toward the high school where the cyclist crashed, and south toward the start of the trail). At time index 3:07:30, you will see the trail intersection, and the cyclist went south instead of east. However, like I said, I saw several bridges that look the same. All wooden, some only have a center bollard, others have 3. Here are some timing that I noted:

    2:50:04 Crossing John Tyler Hwy
    2:58:17 Crossing Two Rivers RD
    3:02:02 Bridge 1 bollard
    3:03:22 Crossing Heritage Landing RD
    3:04:02 Crossing John Rolfe LN
    3:07:18 Going south near the end

    Also, I think the cyclist who crashed was heading west. This is based on Google maps showing that there is a 3-foot drop across the bridge, and the witness said he was going downhill.
    Last edited by n18; 01-30-2020 at 07:42 PM.

  10. Likes Steve O liked this post
  11. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,342
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hancockbs View Post
    "something similar" is a specific conclusion? The bollard in and of itself, nor its placement alone could possibly cause a death. Unless the bollard was somehow launched at the rider, he had to be moving toward it, fall on it, or something similar to result in a death. Lack of the person hitting the bollard or the bollard hitting the person, with some velocity, there is no possible outcome of death.
    I guess you think this is cute. I think it's disgusting.

  12. Likes SpaceJockey liked this post
    Dislikes SpaceJockey, Hancockbs disliked this post
  13. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Alexandria
    Posts
    842
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hancockbs View Post
    "something similar" is a specific conclusion?.
    Yes. You're pretty clearly accusing the deceased of negligence. For all we know, a large animal sped toward the trail as he approached the bollard. Oh, but maybe you would blame him for not holding his line anyway. Lack of attention, right? Or something similar, surely.

    Also your whole blame-the-moving-thing line of argument is ridiculous. "Don't blame the bear trap (or the person who set it beside the public hiking trail) - it's the dog's fault for not looking where it stepped! The trap was just sitting there, perfectly still and therefore it, and the person who placed it, are blameless! What do you mean, it is designed to injure? So what? Without the animal's movement there would have been no injury!"

  14. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Rosslyn, Arlington, VA
    Posts
    58
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Are bollards in a bad spot? YES
    Do freak occurrences happen that may result in a Rube-Goldberg-esque series of events that caused an exceptionally safe and aware cyclist to meet their end upon a static piece of infrastructure? YES
    Do people make mistakes? YES

    It sucks, be smart and do your best to ride safe.
    One "rider level" fix......what about signage or yellow tape if you notice a trail hazard? There are emergent issues that cannot be resolved within the timeline of public debate and government approval.
    I'm accustomed to no assumption of personal safety. In fact, I've experienced a life-threatening trauma pneumothorax and had a tree fall literally one foot from me while on a bike. It happens.

  15. Likes Hancockbs liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •