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Thread: Am I at fault if I get hit at this type of intersection?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstone View Post
    The only solution is an end to right turn on red but that won't happen until self driving cars make it unnecessary.
    Because you think no one will vote for it? When turn on red became allowable (1970s? Or was it 80s?), New York City (all 5 boroughs) did not allow it and still don't. The city hasn't stalled (despite all the traffic, and it does have other issues). People drive in and out of the city all the time and somehow manage to not be turning on red all the time in the city and remember they can when they leave. I am not sure what their pedestrian and bicycle accident rate is (although I know that pedestrians will cross roads with cars coming - a large enough mass on Manhattan streets will just cross even without right of way and cars coming). Perhaps we can get DC and surrounding counties to remove turn on red.

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  3. #22
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    DC recently implemented a sweeping no right on red to over 100 intersections in the city:

    https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/d...9-9079422d05af

    One concern with this is that drivers will rush to turn during green, contending with those trying to cross, possibly making things even more dangerous.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaCynic View Post
    DC recently implemented a sweeping no right on red to over 100 intersections in the city:

    https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/d...9-9079422d05af

    One concern with this is that drivers will rush to turn during green, contending with those trying to cross, possibly making things even more dangerous.
    I tend to discount "concerns" raised by AAA/Mr. Townsend. Also: those restrictions aren't all live yet; the announcement was made then, but signage is being put up over several months at the identified intersections.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

  5. #24
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    Not a direct answer to your question, but ... I know this intersection, but haven't really ridden it the way you describe. I'm usually on Mount Vernon itself going in either direction. Looking at the Google Maps picture:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8428...7i13312!8i6656

    and knowing that you're crossing when the traffic on Mount Vernon has a red light, I wouldn't even ride in the crosswalk. I'd ride in what amounts to the middle of the intersection to get to Four Mile Run. After you cross and are on Four Mile Run, move from the left of the lane to the curb part of the lane. Gives you plenty of "space" and "bail out" room for any cars that are not paying as much attention as they should making a right turn on red. In other words, greatly reduces your chances of getting hit. And you're clearly on the road not the in the crosswalk if there's some weird legal issue about a bike in a crosswalk. Don't know if that helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emm View Post
    Question for the legal minds here. There's a spot on my route in Alexandria where I go from a trail (which ends at that point), cross in a crosswalk, and then divert into the street. It's a T intersection, and I'm crossing the top of the T. It has a crosswalk, and a pedestrian light. I ONLY cross when the pedestrian signal gives me the white cross signal. See attached very-true-to-life artwork if you want to see what I'm talking about.

    Recently, I'm had numerous close calls at this intersection with cars flying through the crosswalk without stopping, to turn right onto Four Mile Rd. I was discussing this with another bike-person yesterday, who said as a cyclist, I'm likely going to be partly at fault in a crash like this, EVEN if I'm inside of or right next to the crosswalk, with a walk signal since Virginia law has some weird rules with bikes in crosswalks, especially if I am attempting to cross in the crosswalk and then divert into the road (and not continue onto the sidewalk). More or less regardless of if I'm crossing with a walk signal, and mostly staying in the crosswalk, I'll get dinged with contributory negligence since I shouldn't be there/driver will claim I wasn't in the crosswalk even if I was or I was within 12 inches of it, etc.

    Is this a real issue I need to be prepared for? Should I either a) continue onto the sidewalk briefly so I'm staying in the crosswalk the entire time vs diverting a foot or two before the crosswalk ends into the road (which is sadly, exactly where I'm likely to get hit), which is going to likely inconvenience a number of pedestrians at this crossing or b) accept this is absurd, and find a new route home since I'm likely going to get hit here and will have fault in the accident? It'd be ridiculous that I can't use the best route I have home because people don't understand red lights mean stop. Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuxtr View Post
    Not a direct answer to your question, but ... I know this intersection, but haven't really ridden it the way you describe. I'm usually on Mount Vernon itself going in either direction. Looking at the Google Maps picture:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8428...7i13312!8i6656

    and knowing that you're crossing when the traffic on Mount Vernon has a red light, I wouldn't even ride in the crosswalk. I'd ride in what amounts to the middle of the intersection to get to Four Mile Run. After you cross and are on Four Mile Run, move from the left of the lane to the curb part of the lane. Gives you plenty of "space" and "bail out" room for any cars that are not paying as much attention as they should making a right turn on red. In other words, greatly reduces your chances of getting hit. And you're clearly on the road not the in the crosswalk if there's some weird legal issue about a bike in a crosswalk. Don't know if that helps.
    But if you cross traffic outside the crosswalk, then technically you are not doing a legal crossing...

    In this particular situation, how about crossing at the crosswalk on the OTHER side of the intersection? Cars on this side can only make a right before the crosswalk, so right on red should not be an issue. In fact, looking at this, I almost want to say the east bound from FM road should use the north crosswalk and west bound from FMR should use the south crosswalk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuxtr View Post
    Not a direct answer to your question, but ... I know this intersection, but haven't really ridden it the way you describe. I'm usually on Mount Vernon itself going in either direction. Looking at the Google Maps picture:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8428...7i13312!8i6656
    And how surprising is it that the Google Street View shows a car making a right turn on red?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCAKen View Post
    And how surprising is it that the Google Street View shows a car making a right turn on red?
    Ha! How topical!

    What about using the further crosswalk as a deliberate choice to improve your likely safety, given the propensity for so many drivers to roll through the right-on-red?
    (The yellow line in my revised drawing... that would put you directly facing anyone making a turn, rather than approaching them from the side.)
    Does that offer any help? (although it of course isn't as directly "straight across" convenient as the crosswalk you indicate.)

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaCynic View Post

    In this particular situation, how about crossing at the crosswalk on the OTHER side of the intersection? Cars on this side can only make a right before the crosswalk, so right on red should not be an issue. In fact, looking at this, I almost want to say the east bound from FM road should use the north crosswalk and west bound from FMR should use the south crosswalk.
    Possible, BUT then I'd have to cross Four Mile Road to go straight down it, which at that moment would be illegal since I'd have a do-not cross signal for crossing Four Mile Rd, and in all honesty, I'd be facing drivers at that moment leaving Four Mile Run Road turning right onto Mt Vernon Ave. And they'll have a green light, so if I get hit there it might even be worse--there's currently a court case going on in Alexandria where a driver's insurance company is saying since they had a green light to turn, the walk signal shouldn't have been on, therefor it's not the driver's fault they hit and injured a pedestrian. The lawyer defending the injured pedestrian is a member of Alexandria's City Council, hence me hearing about it. Needless to say it's pretty absurd.

  11. #29
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    Here's my two cents. The law says cyclists in crosswalks are the same as pedestrians. A pedestrian crossing a crosswalk with a green walk signal has the right of way. There is no way in hell you are at fault - and if there's some weird quirk or weird interpretation of the law that says you are, that is the problem and should be fixed.

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emm View Post
    Possible, BUT then I'd have to cross Four Mile Road to go straight down it, which at that moment would be illegal since I'd have a do-not cross signal for crossing Four Mile Rd, and in all honesty, I'd be facing drivers at that moment leaving Four Mile Run Road turning right onto Mt Vernon Ave. And they'll have a green light, so if I get hit there it might even be worse--there's currently a court case going on in Alexandria where a driver's insurance company is saying since they had a green light to turn, the walk signal shouldn't have been on, therefor it's not the driver's fault they hit and injured a pedestrian. The lawyer defending the injured pedestrian is a member of Alexandria's City Council, hence me hearing about it. Needless to say it's pretty absurd.
    "since they had a green light to turn, the walk signal shouldn't have been on, therefor it's not the driver's fault they hit and injured a pedestrian."
    Absurd argument indeed, good luck with this as pedestrian walk signal always have the right of way. I hope this won't be used for no-right-on-red incursions.

    Back to the crossing. I saw some markings just west of the intersection on Four Mile Road that looked like pedestrian crossings, so I thought you could get through the intersection, go a little further via sidewalk to Elbert, and then cross over. But I'm not sure if these markings are in fact crosswalks as I didn't see any signs.

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