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Thread: Help shape the future of Rosslynís street network!

  1. #11
    lordofthemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsionakides View Post
    IME in the Netherlands, there was still a lot of conflict between peds and bikes in the bike lanes, though much of that had to do with crossings and intersections. The main difference in NL is a much higher bike percentage and a real network of separated biking facilities, not small one off pieces such as Maine Ave and Virginia Ave. Until Maine and Virginia connect to larger protected bike networks, there will never be more than a few dozen cyclists using them each day, and you won't see the PBLs respected by peds.
    The bikeometer on Maine shows around a hundred riders (and scooters?) even on bad weather days, and I think several hundred on better weather days (even though better weather days are days dealing with peds is more difficult) That is still far from what you see in the NL.

    I mean lets say I see 240 in the cyclometer. A lot of folks don't show up in the cyclometer either because their destination is in the wharf, or because they come from 7th in the crosswalk and miss it - so say, 400 riders/scooters in a day. Assume almost all are in the peak hours - say 7 to 9 AM, and 4:30 to 6:30 pm. So 50 in each direction in an hour. Less than one a minute. Hardly enough to make it feel like a "bike lane" to most pedestrians. Far far from NL levels.
    Last edited by lordofthemark; 03-14-2019 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    The bikeometer on Maine shows around a hundred riders (and scooters?) even on bad weather days, and I think several hundred on better weather days (even though better weather days are days dealing with peds is more difficult) That is still far from what you see in the NL.

    I mean lets say I see 240 in the cyclometer. A lot of folks don't show up in the cyclometer either because their destination is in the wharf, or because they come from 7th in the crosswalk and miss it - so say, 400 riders/scooters in a day. Assume almost all are in the peak hours - say 7 to 9 AM, and 4:30 to 6:30 pm. So 50 in each direction in an hour. Less than one a minute. Hardly enough to make it feel like a "bike lane" to most pedestrians. Far far from NL levels.
    100=8.33 dozen, i.e. a few dozen. The NL bike paths have thousands of riders per day. I even read recently that London had bike paths with over 13,000 riders per day, and London is nowhere near as mature a cycling city as most anywhere in the NL. A couple hundred cyclists per day just isn't that many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zsionakides View Post
    100=8.33 dozen, i.e. a few dozen. The NL bike paths have thousands of riders per day. I even read recently that London had bike paths with over 13,000 riders per day, and London is nowhere near as mature a cycling city as most anywhere in the NL. A couple hundred cyclists per day just isn't that many.
    Yesterday evening the bikeometer at 7th and Maine showed 320 riders, that was 6PM or so, so the number was still increasing. And that omits the riders who do not pass the bikeometer.

    Still not like the NL, and I agree that Rosslyn would be better off with in street PBLs based on the Maine avenue experience. But the Maine PBL IS getting more use than some folks may think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    Yesterday evening the bikeometer at 7th and Maine showed 320 riders, that was 6PM or so, so the number was still increasing. And that omits the riders who do not pass the bikeometer.

    Still not like the NL, and I agree that Rosslyn would be better off with in street PBLs based on the Maine avenue experience. But the Maine PBL IS getting more use than some folks may think.
    It was a nice day yesterday and there were lots of cyclists out of hibernation.

    Crystal Drive's NB on-street unprotected bike lane had 165 riders yesterday, which extrapolates out to 330 if you assume the same ridership southbound. That shows that isolated PBLs probably don't get anyone riding beyond confident riders who ride in a lot of mediocre conditions already.

    Unless a network of end to end protected facilities is built in Rosslyn and connects well to the Custis/MVT/110/50 trails, usage will be limited, and may not be much higher than it is now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zsionakides View Post
    It was a nice day yesterday and there were lots of cyclists out of hibernation.

    Crystal Drive's NB on-street unprotected bike lane had 165 riders yesterday, which extrapolates out to 330 if you assume the same ridership southbound. That shows that isolated PBLs probably don't get anyone riding beyond confident riders who ride in a lot of mediocre conditions already.

    Unless a network of end to end protected facilities is built in Rosslyn and connects well to the Custis/MVT/110/50 trails, usage will be limited, and may not be much higher than it is now.
    A nice day means more riders across the region, but also a lot more peds at the Wharf. Yesterday evening the combo of good weather and some end of week event made the PBL very unpleasant to ride in. In general the PBL at the Wharf gets less confident riders - a very large number of the more confident riders tend to avoid it entirely.

    I note one reason for preferring sidewalk level PBLs is to avoid illegal parking at the gaps in the PBL. I would hope physical protection and/or enforcement could be used instead, as I think we are not ready for sidewalk level PBLs in places with significant pedestrian activity.

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    I'm very happy that they're not two-waying Fort Myer north of Lee. That would have created a second intersection of doom.

    On the issue of sidewalk-level PBLs: for riding with kids, I absolutely prefer the sidewalk-level PBLs. At driveways with street-level PBLs, it's easy for a car to pull over blocking the lane or to suddenly pull through the PBL without slowing enough when turning. With sidewalk-level, the cars are less likely to pull up on the sidewalk level to (e.g.) let people out, and cars are more likely to slow more because drive up onto the sidewalk. Also, with more space to cross, a turning car would be less of a surprise to someone biking in a sidewalk level PBL.

    Clearly, the design has to minimize pedestrian conflict. At the Wharf, the sidewalks are narrow and blocked with a bunch of stuff. I get why people walking with larger loads, or (e.g.) joggers who just want to get past everyone would take the PBL over the sidewalk. But the primary problem there (IMO) is that the sidewalk sucks. The designs for Rosslyn seem to include beautifully wide sidewalks. That would be a game changer.

    I agree that any gaps in the network are problematic. The concept presented had a few (e.g. NB Meade b/n 50-off ramp & Fairfax) that could be easily addressed

    Also, any plan must underscore the need for a fix for the Custis at Lynn and Lee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dasgeh View Post
    At the Wharf, the sidewalks are narrow and blocked with a bunch of stuff. I get why people walking with larger loads, or (e.g.) joggers who just want to get past everyone would take the PBL over the sidewalk.
    Eh. There are about a thousand places in Alexandria where I would love to have a sidewalk as good as the sidewalk (not the PBL) at the Wharf. Its not super wide, and in the past there were obstructions, but its perfectly walkable.

    And I have little problem with the joggers or the folks schlepping wheeled luggage - the joggers in particular are usually going in the right direction, are going at a pace that is not too painful for a rider to slow to, and actually know what "passing on your left" means. Its the folks STANDING in the PBL smoking or looking at their phone, standing in line for the bus, or walking fairly aimlessly along and across the PBL that make riding challenging.

    Yes wider sidewalks will help. I suppose it will be interesting to see just how much.

    Note also, at least at the Wharf, the sidewalk level location of the PBL presents visibility issues for vehicles going across the PBL from the Wharf to Maine that would I think be lessened with an in street PBL instead. But perhaps much wider sidewalks will mitigate that.
    Last edited by lordofthemark; 03-15-2019 at 01:29 PM.

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    The online survey is up now if you would like to share your feedback.

    Here are some thoughts from Sustainable Mobility for Arlington County, if you have other thoughts please share them so we can all crib ideas from each other.

    1) 19th Street needs protected bike lanes in both directions from Ft Myer Drive to Lynn St. The Rosslyn Sector Plan calls for a new connection to the Mt Vernon Trail at the far east end of 19th Street. It is vital that a first-class bike facility exist on 19th Street to get people to and from that new trail connection.

    2) Wilson Blvd needs protected bike lanes from Oak St to Arlington Ridge Road. This is the main East-West route through Rosslyn and an extremely stressful street to bike on. Additionally, significant pick-up and drop-off occurs which would lead to frequent conflicts for unprotected bike lanes.

    3) If Ft Myer Drive and Lynn street's protected bike lanes are, as proposed, at sidewalk level then the design must be bold and clear that this area is for bikes. It must be unmistakable and obvious using multiple visual and tactile indicators so as to avoid pedestrian conflicts.

    4) Any planning for this area, including this study, must reinforce that either grade separation or re-routing I-66 traffic entirely, are the ultimate fix for the Intersection of Doom.

    5) The ultimate design should feature "protected intersection" designs anywhere a protected bike lane intersects with another bicycle facility.


    Project Page with background information
    Meeting Display Boards
    Ft Myer Drive concept renderings, including what the sidewalk-level 1-way PBL might look like
    TAKE THIS SURVEY

    Deadline: April 3rd
    Last edited by chris_s; 03-20-2019 at 11:34 AM.

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