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Thread: Help shape the future of Rosslynís street network!

  1. #1
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    Default Help shape the future of Rosslynís street network!

    This public meeting should be pretty delightful-- a neato location and an opportunity to share thoughts on what has the potential to be a really transformative plan to make Rosslyn better for people walking, biking and driving.

    Deets from online:

    Core of Rosslyn Transportation Study - Concept 2
    3/13/2019 - 4:00 pm - 7:00 pm
    The Observation Deck at CEB Tower (entrance on N Moore, off Central Place Plaza)

    The County, in partnership with the Rosslyn Business Improvement District (BID), has been studying how to implement street network changes outlined in the Rosslyn Sector Plan. Last October we shared the results of Concept 1, which modeled all the transportation infrastructure changes in the Sector Plan that could be realistically built by 2030. Concept 2, which incorporates public feedback and lessons learned from the first concept, includes most changes listed in the Sector Plan but keeps Lynn Street and Moore Street as one-way.

    Join us at Rosslynís newest attraction Ė The Observation Deck on the 31st floor of CEB Tower Ė to learn more about the study and the latest concept and to provide feedback on how well Concept 2 addresses community goals.

    Your input will be critical to shaping the final preferred alternative and ultimately the Core of Rosslyn!

    NOTE: The entrance for The Observation Deck is on Central Place Plaza, located on the 1700 block of North Moore Street across from the Rosslyn Metro Station.

    Visit the study webpage to view materials from previous public meetings.
    https://projects.arlingtonva.us/even...lic-meeting-3/

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    Tonight's meeting will present a new concept plan, quite different from Concept #1 which was presented last October. Final drawings of Concept #2 aren't out yet, but early drafts of this concept are significantly worse for biking than Concept #1 was. Things to watch out for:

    1) Does it provide a low-stress bike route for the entirety of 19th Street? The Rosslyn Sector Plan calls for a new connection to the Mt Vernon Trail at the far east end of 19th Street. It is vital that a first-class bike facility exist on 19th Street moving forward to get people to and from that new trail connection. Concept #1 had a protected bike lane in both directions between Lynn and Ft Meyer with unprotected bike lanes east of Lynn.
    2) Does it provide a low-stress bike route for the entirety of Wilson Blvd? Concept #1 dropped down to a SHARROW for eastbound Wilson Blvd between Nash and Lynn Street (with a great protected bike lane westbound). Does Concept #1 fix this problem? or make it worse?
    3) Will the new designs resulted in a usable facility? Early drafts of Concept #2 switched from street-level, curb-protected bike lanes to sidewalk-level bike lanes. Many local residents have had bad experiences with sidewalk level cycling facilities along Maine Ave and elsewhere in DC. What are we gaining by moving to sidewalk-level facilities? How does the County intend to design them to prevent bike/pedestrian conflicts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chris_s View Post
    Tonight's meeting will present a new concept plan, quite different from Concept #1 which was presented last October. Final drawings of Concept #2 aren't out yet, but early drafts of this concept are significantly worse for biking than Concept #1 was. Things to watch out for:

    1) Does it provide a low-stress bike route for the entirety of 19th Street? The Rosslyn Sector Plan calls for a new connection to the Mt Vernon Trail at the far east end of 19th Street. It is vital that a first-class bike facility exist on 19th Street moving forward to get people to and from that new trail connection. Concept #1 had a protected bike lane in both directions between Lynn and Ft Meyer with unprotected bike lanes east of Lynn.
    2) Does it provide a low-stress bike route for the entirety of Wilson Blvd? Concept #1 dropped down to a SHARROW for eastbound Wilson Blvd between Nash and Lynn Street (with a great protected bike lane westbound). Does Concept #1 fix this problem? or make it worse?
    3) Will the new designs resulted in a usable facility? Early drafts of Concept #2 switched from street-level, curb-protected bike lanes to sidewalk-level bike lanes. Many local residents have had bad experiences with sidewalk level cycling facilities along Maine Ave and elsewhere in DC. What are we gaining by moving to sidewalk-level facilities? How does the County intend to design them to prevent bike/pedestrian conflicts?
    #1 & #2 resonate with me - I exit my office building on N. Kent between 19th and Wilson and the east ends of both 19th and Wilson are harrowing to ride on.

    Unfortunately I just noticed this meeting and can't attend tonight

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    I'm wondering why Nash St isn't considered as a connecting point to the Custis trail. Nash's bridge over 66 is pretty wide and has light traffic, vice trying to get what will probably be narrow PBLs on Lynn and Ft Myer.

    Putting a cycle track around the 19th St/Nash loop and a facility on Kent St should make low stress facilities on Wilson less necessary as there would be a bypass for much of the route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chris_s View Post
    Tonight's meeting will present a new concept plan, quite different from Concept #1 which was presented last October. Final drawings of Concept #2 aren't out yet, but early drafts of this concept are significantly worse for biking than Concept #1 was. Things to watch out for:

    1) Does it provide a low-stress bike route for the entirety of 19th Street? The Rosslyn Sector Plan calls for a new connection to the Mt Vernon Trail at the far east end of 19th Street. It is vital that a first-class bike facility exist on 19th Street moving forward to get people to and from that new trail connection. Concept #1 had a protected bike lane in both directions between Lynn and Ft Meyer with unprotected bike lanes east of Lynn.
    2) Does it provide a low-stress bike route for the entirety of Wilson Blvd? Concept #1 dropped down to a SHARROW for eastbound Wilson Blvd between Nash and Lynn Street (with a great protected bike lane westbound). Does Concept #1 fix this problem? or make it worse?
    3) Will the new designs resulted in a usable facility? Early drafts of Concept #2 switched from street-level, curb-protected bike lanes to sidewalk-level bike lanes. Many local residents have had bad experiences with sidewalk level cycling facilities along Maine Ave and elsewhere in DC. What are we gaining by moving to sidewalk-level facilities? How does the County intend to design them to prevent bike/pedestrian conflicts?
    Three cases A. The Netherlands (never been there, but have read a lot about it, seen films, etc) B. Virginia Avenue in near SE DC C. Maine Avenue in SW DC

    The benefit of sidewalk level lanes is, IIUC, greater separation from traffic, with some safety advantage ( ? - maybe only when the in street alternative is not protected by parking?) and also a seperation from fumes benefit ,and no issue with the gutter.The obvious disadvantage is conflict with peds using the sidewalk level bike lane as a sidewalk.

    In the NL, IIUC, peds respect the bike lanes. Because there are so many bike riders in them, it would be hard to confuse them with a sidewalk - and because since so many peds also ride, they are more aware.

    In the USA this generally does not hold. However the Virginia avenue PBL works anyway, because there is so little pedestrian movement there (a neighborhood almost entirely of townhouses).

    On Maine Avenue, where there is dense mixed use, the PBL works more like a MUT (but with a lot more crossings). At times of day and weather conditions with relatively few peds, its okay at a speed that allows for slowing at the crossings. At times with more peds, it requires a considerably slower speed. Clearly, in retrospect, given the success of the Wharf as a ped destination, and the culture relative to bike (and other mobility devices) in greater DC, it would have been better to have an in street bike lane on Maine.

    Arlington should consider if Rosslyn will be more like the Wharf or more like Virginia Avenue.
    Last edited by lordofthemark; 03-14-2019 at 09:02 AM.

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    Great to see some of you at last night's event, and appreciate all the thoughts being shared here.

    For those unable to attend, the materials from last night's meeting as well as the online feedback form are now on the project page. Form closes April 3rd.
    Last edited by Erin Potter; 03-14-2019 at 10:31 AM. Reason: everyone likes more dates, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    In the NL, IIUC, peds respect the bike lanes. Because there are so many bike riders in them, it would be hard to confuse them with a sidewalk - and because since so many peds also ride, they are more aware.
    In northern Germany (Kiel in particular) they had sidewalk level bike lanes. The sidewalks were wide, the bike lanes were wide. The bike lanes were a very different color from the sidewalks and no physical separation (it was a while ago, so I might be wrong on that count). I am thinking something like one was red and the other blue or green. Yes, it was Germany and they tend to follow rules like these more than people here (yes, I can give examples for the opposite for each, but that is the local norm I saw) and there were lots of cyclists, but there just wasn't too much crossing into the other lanes.

    Are the sidewalk level lanes here you mention like that? If I recall, the Maine Ave ones are the same color as the road, with a median between the bike and ped lanes. That might just not clue peds in as much. From my experience, all the bike lanes that are colored green in Arlington seem to have fewer car incursions - perhaps because they are seen so clearly. Might it make sense to color the bike lanes at sidewalk level to be something that peds do not normally walk on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    Three cases A. The Netherlands (never been there, but have read a lot about it, seen films, etc) B. Virginia Avenue in near SE DC C. Maine Avenue in SW DC

    The benefit of sidewalk level lanes is, IIUC, greater separation from traffic, with some safety advantage ( ? - maybe only when the in street alternative is not protected by parking?) and also a seperation from fumes benefit ,and no issue with the gutter.The obvious disadvantage is conflict with peds using the sidewalk level bike lane as a sidewalk.

    In the NL, IIUC, peds respect the bike lanes. Because there are so many bike riders in them, it would be hard to confuse them with a sidewalk - and because since so many peds also ride, they are more aware.

    In the USA this generally does not hold. However the Virginia avenue PBL works anyway, because there is so little pedestrian movement there (a neighborhood almost entirely of townhouses).

    On Maine Avenue, where there is dense mixed use, the PBL works more like a MUT (but with a lot more crossings). At times of day and weather conditions with relatively few peds, its okay at a speed that allows for slowing at the crossings. At times with more peds, it requires a considerably slower speed. Clearly, in retrospect, given the success of the Wharf as a ped destination, and the culture relative to bike (and other mobility devices) in greater DC, it would have been better to have an in street bike lane on Maine.

    Arlington should consider if Rosslyn will be more like the Wharf or more like Virginia Avenue.
    Even with Virginia Avenue SE - I wouldn't say that it really works. Every time I've ridden through there (I've been making a point of going that way when in the area and heading in that general direction just to see how it's doing - so maybe a dozen times since it started opening up), there've been pedestrians walking or just standing around chatting on the PBL. (One even yelled at me to get off the sidewalk, which was comical.) It's less of an issue than Maine just because it's a smaller volume of all kinds of traffic, but in my experience, folks still don't "get it" or care to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    Three cases A. The Netherlands (never been there, but have read a lot about it, seen films, etc) B. Virginia Avenue in near SE DC C. Maine Avenue in SW DC

    The benefit of sidewalk level lanes is, IIUC, greater separation from traffic, with some safety advantage ( ? - maybe only when the in street alternative is not protected by parking?) and also a seperation from fumes benefit ,and no issue with the gutter.The obvious disadvantage is conflict with peds using the sidewalk level bike lane as a sidewalk.

    In the NL, IIUC, peds respect the bike lanes. Because there are so many bike riders in them, it would be hard to confuse them with a sidewalk - and because since so many peds also ride, they are more aware.

    In the USA this generally does not hold. However the Virginia avenue PBL works anyway, because there is so little pedestrian movement there (a neighborhood almost entirely of townhouses).

    On Maine Avenue, where there is dense mixed use, the PBL works more like a MUT (but with a lot more crossings). At times of day and weather conditions with relatively few peds, its okay at a speed that allows for slowing at the crossings. At times with more peds, it requires a considerably slower speed. Clearly, in retrospect, given the success of the Wharf as a ped destination, and the culture relative to bike (and other mobility devices) in greater DC, it would have been better to have an in street bike lane on Maine.

    Arlington should consider if Rosslyn will be more like the Wharf or more like Virginia Avenue.
    IME in the Netherlands, there was still a lot of conflict between peds and bikes in the bike lanes, though much of that had to do with crossings and intersections. The main difference in NL is a much higher bike percentage and a real network of separated biking facilities, not small one off pieces such as Maine Ave and Virginia Ave. Until Maine and Virginia connect to larger protected bike networks, there will never be more than a few dozen cyclists using them each day, and you won't see the PBLs respected by peds.

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    My experience on the Virginia Avenue PBL has I think all been in winter months and on weekends, so may well be biased towards times of zero or almost zero pedestrian activity.
    Last edited by lordofthemark; 03-14-2019 at 01:18 PM.

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