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Thread: Washington Blvd repaving thru Westover

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    Quote Originally Posted by dasgeh View Post
    Huh? PBLs are not MUPs - they are restricted to wheeled transportation (scooters etc welcome).
    In defense of Dismal, he asked for examples of PBLs on streets lined with single family homes, and the examples mentioned (W&OD along Virginia Ln, path along MacArthur Blvd) are multi-use paths, not protected bike lanes, and I don't think he ever claimed that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyRider View Post
    Darn right. And in practice this means that if there was a PBL on the north side of Washington in Westover, after backing into a parking spot in front of Ayers hardware, said driver-turned-pedestrian has two options:

    1. Use a bike or a scooter or other two-wheeled vehicle to cross the PBL and get to the sidewalk.
    2. Hoof it to one of the new crosswalks and cross the PBL there.

    No popping out into the PBL in between parked cars, pedestrians!
    peds are allowed to walk across PBL's, just as they are allowed to cross general travel lanes. They are not allowed to proceed on a PBL, just as they are not allowed to proceed in a general travel (with exceptions where there is no sidewalk) I mean I suppose its true that they can only legally cross a PBL at a crosswalk - never enforced. I suppose it could matter in a tort case. I know when I ride on the Maine PBL, my assumption is that the unlawfulness of the peds who cross it regularly, and even walk on it, does not protect me at all.

    I also believe that people accessing a parked car are allowed to enter a PBL or conventional bike lane away from a crosswalk, just as they are allowed to enter the roadway (whether or not there is stripe differentiating the general travel lane from the parking lane) in order to do so. How else would people access the driver side of a car in an ordinary on street parking space where there is no bike infrastructure? Is there an implicit separation of parking zone from general travel lane even when there is no parking lane striping?
    Last edited by lordofthemark; 03-08-2019 at 12:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    In defense of Dismal, he asked for examples of PBLs on streets lined with single family homes, and the examples mentioned (W&OD along Virginia Ln, path along MacArthur Blvd) are multi-use paths, not protected bike lanes, and I don't think he ever claimed that.

    I believe this confusion began with comments from Zsionakides who is not on the BAC and who believes that bike advocates are not pushing hard enough for PBLs. Zsionakides, I hope you have found this exchange illuminating. I would note that out in the real world, its far worse (and that is true even when we try to be very politically savvy in what we ask for and how we ask for it, which most of us do)

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    peds are allowed to walk across PBL's, just as they are allowed to cross general travel lanes. They are not allowed to proceed on a PBL, just as they are not allowed to proceed in a general travel (with exceptions where there is no sidewalk) I mean I suppose its true that they can only legally cross a PBL at a crosswalk - never enforced. I suppose it could matter in a tort case. I know when I ride on the Maine PBL, my assumption is that the unlawfulness of the peds who cross it regularly, and even walk on it, does not protect me at all.

    I also believe that people accessing a parked car are allowed to enter a PBL or conventional bike lane away from a crosswalk, just as they are allowed to enter the roadway (whether or not there is stripe differentiating the general travel lane from the parking lane) in order to do so. How else would people access the driver side of a car in an ordinary on street parking space where there is no bike infrastructure? Is there an implicit separation of parking zone from general travel lane even when there is no parking lane striping?
    I guess my assertion that one of the "options" a driver has for crossing a four foot wide PBL is a wheeled conveyance was not ridiculous enough. The point I was trying to make is that in this context, you'd need such ridiculous rules to avoid conflicts with pedestrians who would be constantly crossing the PBL to reach parked cars, all up and down the length of Washington Blvd in Westover. My guess is that is why a PBL isn't one of the options shown.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyRider View Post
    I guess my assertion that one of the "options" a driver has for crossing a four foot wide PBL is a wheeled conveyance was not ridiculous enough. The point I was trying to make is that in this context, you'd need such ridiculous rules to avoid conflicts with pedestrians who would be constantly crossing the PBL to reach parked cars, all up and down the length of Washington Blvd in Westover. My guess is that is why a PBL isn't one of the options shown.
    When I ride down 31st street to Shirlington pedestrians constantly cross the street (in between the widely spaced crosswalks) to get to their cars. They do so on Park Center Drive where I live. They cross both the general travel lane and the bike lane on North Hampton Drive.

    I am not commenting on the practicality of any particular treatment on Washington Blvd. I just want to clarify the law.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyRider View Post
    I guess my assertion that one of the "options" a driver has for crossing a four foot wide PBL is a wheeled conveyance was not ridiculous enough. The point I was trying to make is that in this context, you'd need such ridiculous rules to avoid conflicts with pedestrians who would be constantly crossing the PBL to reach parked cars, all up and down the length of Washington Blvd in Westover. My guess is that is why a PBL isn't one of the options shown.
    What other than the level of parking turnover, makes it different from here, say?

    https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8586...7i13312!8i6656

    I mean don't parking protected bike lanes always involve people crossing the bike lane to access their parked cars?

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  8. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasgeh View Post
    Not sure where you're looking, but I studied this very closely when I had to take a kid to Upton hill from Cherrydale with no assist. Washington Blvd is much flatter, particularly in the stretch covering Harrison and Patrick Henry (which makes sense, as you have to go up from Washington to 16th).
    Nope. Based on Strava segments: (I assume you are talking eastbound, because both are downhill from Harrison west as Harrison is at the top of the hill.)

    Down Yaaawn (Washington Blvd from Greenbrier to Kennilworth) has a 2.0% grade eastbound
    (Interestingly, YAAAWN, the reverse segment has a grade of 4.1%, which I think is wrong)

    %^%$$#% Speedbumps! (16th Street from Harrison to Jefferson) has a 1.1% grade eastbound.

    On the EFC to VHC route, if you were to take Washington Blvd, you should still turn left at Longfellow and take 16th Street to the Hospital, which would only involve 1 block of the study area. Of course, if you were going to VHC from the metro, it probably would make a lot more sense to get off at Ballston rather than EFC.

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    LOTM (and other): Thinking about (parking or even flexipost) PBLs on residential streets, how does one deal with such prosaic issues as trash day or bus routes? Washington Blvd is a major bus route (2) collecting residents and delivering them to the Ballston metro and back home.

  10. #139
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    Bus routes

    This is not a SFH neighborhood (I guess in this context residential means detached SFHs) but here is one treatment for bus stops

    https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8572...7i13312!8i6656

    I believe there are others.

    Here is a different (and I think more expensive) approach

    https://www.citylab.com/transportati...-bikes/394217/



    Trash pickup.

    Maybe like this? https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9130...7i13312!8i6656

    I would guess many detached SFH areas have more driveways than 15th Street has intersecting alleyways, so it should be even easier (I mean the trash people manage to get the trash bins around parked cars on streets with on street parking and no bike lane, right?) (though the added driveways add to the difficulties of riding fast, of course)

    I would think flexpost protected would be even easier than parking protected, since its easy to pull a trash bin between the flex posts (based on usual flex post spacing?)

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  12. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by DismalScientist View Post
    LOTM (and other): Thinking about (parking or even flexipost) PBLs on residential streets, how does one deal with such prosaic issues as trash day or bus routes? Washington Blvd is a major bus route (2) collecting residents and delivering them to the Ballston metro and back home.
    Same as they do elsewhere - the rider is screwed. See for example, Army-Navy Drive south and west of Joyce (it curves there). Heading SW, the bike lane is moved towards the travel lanes (there is also a bump out for peds to stand somewhere) and the bus pulls into it there. Heading NE, the bike lanes goes dashed and the bus pulls into the bike lane. I have had to sit and wait for the bus (much like on Fairfax) or go around the bus.

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