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Thread: Rules and scoring thread

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    Default Rules and scoring thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    Maybe rule details need a new thread.
    Here it is, and here's hozn's post that reflects my thinking as well:
    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    I think one could pretty easily argue against a points system that simply rewards based on mileage (and some bonus for daily participation). This make it hard for folks who don't have the luxury of being able to spend 4 hours a day on their bikes to ever hope to compete in the points competition. I think adding a social component to scoring could make it competitive to a much larger group and keep the competition more dynamic. I liked some ideas thrown out earlier (perhaps last year) about having bonus points based on winning some of the ongoing pointless prize competitions too, not sure how exactly that gets managed technically, but anything to keep the competition open seems like it would be an improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    - Lowering the bonus per additional rider (50 points is a lot)
    - Probably maximum bonus "credits" per ride. E.g. you can get credit for riding with 1 other person per ride -- so riding with 50 people to the FS convoy isn't going to give you a huge points bump.
    Might be, but I think 10 is too low.
    Good thought, although I think 1 person per ride is too low also. Maybe 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    Codifying MASS needs some clarification too, I think. Is there any renewed interest in incorporating freeze points or is the thought that MASS makes that redundant?
    I think DRASS (Daily Rider Adjusted Scoring System) is better than MASS, and easier. Although I like MASS philosophically (rides are normalized to the median: on the median day an 11 point ride is still 11; a 36 point ride is still 36 points), using a set value like we did last year is simpler and accomplishes the same thing. I created MASS as an alternate to freeze points--trying to capture the idea of rides in "gnarly" weather being worth more, just like vvill was trying to do.
    Last edited by Steve O; 12-01-2017 at 09:22 PM.

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    Yeah, I think the daily points system (DRASS) would be better.

    Maybe @vvill has some suggestions on logarithmic scale for mileage; if I remember right there was an aspect of that in freeze points (?) I might not be remembering correctly, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    @Steve O, what do you think about logarithmic mileage-to-points conversion?
    Like it, and compatible with DRASS. Each accomplishes a different thing:
    - logarithmic revalues daily miles to put more emphasis on getting out and riding and less on the way long miles. There seems to be a reasonable interest in this idea.
    - DRASS scores rides in Freezing Saddles-type weather more than rides in May-like weather. Some sort of way of capturing this has been discussed for at least 3 seasons of FS, so it seems this would be a good year to give it a try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    Here it is, and here's hozn's post that reflects my thinking as well:
    I think one could pretty easily argue against a points system that simply rewards based on mileage (and some bonus for daily participation). This make it hard for folks who don't have the luxury of being able to spend 4 hours a day on their bikes to ever hope to compete in the points competition. I think adding a social component to scoring could make it competitive to a much larger group and keep the competition more dynamic.
    I don't see a time luxury difference between spending 4 hours a day on a bike, versus spending 4 hours at a social event. I certainly agree with the desire to have as much "community" participation as possible. Most participants would ride to a social event and get mileage points doing so. The more events they ride to, the more miles they ride, and the more points they are rewarded with.

    Yes, one could still earn points by just riding by themselves, but I don't think this was much of a problem in the two years I've been doing FS. The pointless prizes, team spirit organizing group rides, and encouragement by event leaders to participate more seemed to foster enough motivation than trying to use the scoring system to do it, which I think causes more problems than it attempts to solve. As mentioned by others, participation is not just convoys and social events (which is time/availability/distance limiting to many participants, though should be encouraged as much as possible), but includes, as a small example, participating online in the forum, uploading pics for sock, coffee, beer, other pointless prizes, etc.
    Last edited by Bob James; 12-01-2017 at 10:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    Like it, and compatible with DRASS. Each accomplishes a different thing:
    - logarithmic revalues daily miles to put more emphasis on getting out and riding and less on the way long miles. There seems to be a reasonable interest in this idea.
    - DRASS scores rides in Freezing Saddles-type weather more than rides in May-like weather. Some sort of way of capturing this has been discussed for at least 3 seasons of FS, so it seems this would be a good year to give it a try.
    I'm rethinking the idea of logarithmic mileage. It might be too complicated [for people to figure out] and maybe wouldn't really further the goals of the competition. To encourage daily riding we could increase the per-day points from 10 to 20 ... but maybe we keep mileage/points linear after that.

    While potentially complicated to implement, I like the concept of DRASS, though. DRASS + potentially other bonuses for capturing the community aspect might be sufficient shakeup in scoring for one year too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    I'm rethinking the idea of logarithmic mileage. It might be too complicated [for people to figure out] and maybe wouldn't really further the goals of the competition. To encourage daily riding we could increase the per-day points from 10 to 20 ... but maybe we keep mileage/points linear after that.
    I like the idea of more points per first few miles to encourage daily riding over sporadic longer rides (e.g. skipping bad weather days). But a sleaze ride should be at least 3 miles, getting 10 points for each of the 1st 3 miles (33 points total). It's too easy to ride one mile and then get rewarded for 20 or 30 points). It takes at least 3 miles to get sufficiently chilled to the bone, or drenched like a drowned rat.

    If people are riding every day, for most that will translate into riding in more convoys and attending more social events.

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    I think the counter argument to longer sleaze rides is that for many 1 mile gets them to the grocery store & back or other errands. I don't dislike the idea of lengthening sleaze rides given how high the % of those that ride every day of competition.

    But I don't see a problem separately rewarding community building. If a purpose of the competition is to grow community then it seems appropriate that the winning team should win in part because of how they have worked toward that goal.

    But if you have a proposal for how one could better measure social aspect to riding, we'd love other ideas. I think the proposed concept can be structured in a way to keep it from overwhelmingly favoring one locale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    I'm rethinking the idea of logarithmic mileage. It might be too complicated [for people to figure out] and maybe wouldn't really further the goals of the competition. To encourage daily riding we could increase the per-day points from 10 to 20 ... but maybe we keep mileage/points linear after that.
    I think the notion of logarithmic mileage or some other form of diminishing returns was to dampen the impact of really long rides (i.e., to remove some of the scoring system's encouragement to keep adding miles) by making the 50th mile of the day, for example, less valuable than the 5th. If that's desirable, then logarithmic mileage would be a pretty straightforward calculation; the challenge would be in defining how quickly to "depreciate" additional mileage - would it be something constant like each additional mile on a given day is only worth 99% of the previous mile (a discount of 1%), or would there be tiers with different discounts? The former approximates as "miles * (0.9975)^miles" aside from the "you rode today" bonus. In that math, 1 mile is 1 point, 2 miles is 1.99 points, 20 miles is 19 points, 50 miles is 44.1 points, 100 miles is 77.86 points (by which point an additional mile is 0.58 points). The math is relatively easy to figure out once the desired outcome is somewhat defined.

    I do think that's a separate (but related) issue from the daily bonus and the idea that Bob raised a few minutes ago (and others raised in the other post) of having additional points awarded for more than just the first completed mile. That way, there's still a strong incentive for at least a sleaze ride of a mile, but also a strong incentive to maybe tack on a little more to get that 2nd mile (or 3rd mile) bonus.

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    Ok, these are good ideas. I do like Bob's idea is 10,20,30 bonus points for miles 1-3.

    If someone wants to propose a diminishing mileage formula that seems reasonable, I'm generally in favor of the idea. I was trying to see if I could find other similar scoring systems that had been used elsewhere, but hadn't turned up anything in brief research.

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