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Thread: Freezing Saddles 2018

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunyata View Post
    I know I am not Steve O, but I am going to give my thoughts on this.

    I can totally get behind the idea of adding the "rode with" points if these were incorporated into the rules, with the bonus points being lowered to 10. I know my vote counts for nothing, but I say we shake things up a bit this year and do it!
    You're certainly a key member of the organization!

    Thanks for feedback. 10 points (and probably some limits of some kind) seems very reasonable. Maybe a maximum total points is not as important if there is a maximum per-ride bonus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob James View Post
    Retirees should get double points for making the effort to get out of their PJ's and comfy recliner to go out and bike when they don't really need to go anywhere.
    au contraire...retirees should get 1/3 points because they have all day to ride unlike us working stiffs.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnoftheDread View Post
    The point the first few years was to ride your bike. I don't know what you folks think the point is now.
    As the creator of Freezing Saddles, Dread is right. Freezing Saddles was a game played amongst a community as we cycled through the winter. It was a farce, a giggle. It was pointless (ergo the games title, taken yes, from Whose Line is it Anways).

    It was never meant as a true competition. In terms of design, it really could not be. The rules bias the game one way or another - and anyway if you actually have to have a D- Measuring Competition, go race. If you actually have to compete to satisfy some self worth need, go join the big kids and the real competitions where its “put up or shut up.” To turn FS into a true competition would be to turn it into something it could not be and ruin the community experience.

    Social points will bias FS towards an inner social clique. Anyone on the outside of that clique will be pretty much out of the game. Live in Frederick Md and able to ride with only a few FS members - yer at a huge disadvantage. you are an introvert or aspergers and you love to ride but you dont like lots of social interaction - you are hosed. You are part of S Arlington HDCC and like riding for donuts - you win. The rules bias the game and determine who wins. For a whole bucket of people FS becomes uninviting and a peripheral experience

    All recreational activity is social. That is a big reason we play. You dont get extra points for playing basketball with a team. you dont get extra points for playing disc golf with friends. You play. And then you go drink beer because you like the people you are with. you dont need a toy surprise award to give you an incentive to be social.

    The fact that you have to be awarded points to be social misses the point and begs some social issues. Do I really have to bribe you to talk to me??? And do I really want you crashing my social experience just so you could earn your stupid points? That happened last year with the social butterfly award which became the “crash other people’s coffee conversations” award which is one of the reasons I stopped going to coffee. If I am immersed in a delicious conversation with a friend, I dont want to be interrupted by a dingus taking a selfie.

    FS is a giggle. It’s design was to build community. I dont need points to talk to people. And if the only reason you will ride with me is to earn 50 points, maybe I should reflect on why it takes that type of incentive to get people to ride with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hozn View Post
    You're certainly a key member of the organization!

    Thanks for feedback. 10 points (and probably some limits of some kind) seems very reasonable. Maybe a maximum total points is not as important if there is a maximum per-ride bonus.
    As someone who has even less of a vote than Sunyata and anyone else who's chimed in, I still think a maximum total points is important to address some of the feedback above. Without some limits, it could be that the social component becomes more of a burden (must find someone to ride with to get more points) as opposed to an encouragement to ride with people if you can with a little bit of an extra incentive for those who otherwise may not. And that helps minimize the impact on those who, by nature of location or just "life" are not able to ride with (m)any others.

    Sticking with the biathlon analogy: the Olympic biathlon race is a 10km cross country skiing race, with 10 targets to hit (in groups of 5) for the sprint (the individual race is twice as much for each). Any missed target results in a 150m penalty loop. So if someone doesn't want to shoot at all, they end up with a 11.5km race, meaning the shooting part is roughly 1/8 of the total. So, if biking is skiing and "social riding" is shooting - the preponderance of the scoring weight should be on the biking aspect.

  5. #265
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    Economist's perspective.

    Does it really matter which measure (Traditional FS points, MASS points, FS with social points) is designated as "the real competition" and which is a "pointless prize"? People will follow and talk about whatever is interesting to them, I think, as long as leaderboards and figures are available on the website for any particular measure (its not that hard to have multiple such figures and leaderboards, is it?) Last year we had MASS points, but only a few people talked about them, IIRC. Whats wrong with just putting it all out there and "letting the market decide" so to speak?

    Also, if this is mostly just about fun riding around (and mostly it is) isn't it against the spirit to be SO concerned with the exact measure? OTOH taunting about who is in the lead is also part of the spirit. At least as long as I have been involved (2015) its had a dual nature - an athletic competition (as I pointed out in an ELF discussion) and also community outreach. In some ways it seems to be, dare I say it, making light hearted (and social) fun of competitions and leaderboards - but to do so, it has to BE a competition. So we need to worry about scoring, how we do each day, etc, but NOT TOO MUCH. Nuance. Hmmm.

    You dont get extra points for playing basketball with a team. you dont get extra points for playing disc golf with friends. You play. And then you go drink beer because you like the people you are with. you dont need a toy surprise award to give you an incentive to be social.

    Yeah, but. Basketball (and disc golf? ) are team sports. Riding a bike (for most people, not road racers) is not one. And people who play basketball, in most of the US (and in this region I think) mostly drive to it, so gathering for it is no big deal. For someone who lives in Springfield, say, to ride into DC for coffee, is itself an athletic thing they might not have done otherwise.

    I live near Shirlington, and I am not an introvert (or rather my introversion takes the form of enjoying social interaction where we talk biking stuff, and I don't have to make dreaded small talk) so social points would "help" me. But I am fine if they are not tracked - as it happens when I look back on past FS, I don't even look at total points so much as miles (which are on my collection of paper plates - yeah, I know - and better track my improvement in winter riding, I think).

    And yeah, I am continuing to work on my "selfie" taking skills.
    Last edited by lordofthemark; 12-01-2017 at 10:19 AM.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcannon100 View Post
    As the creator of Freezing Saddles, Dread is right. Freezing Saddles was a game played amongst a community as we cycled through the winter. It was a farce, a giggle. It was pointless (ergo the games title, taken yes, from Whose Line is it Anways).

    It was never meant as a true competition. In terms of design, it really could not be. The rules bias the game one way or another - and anyway if you actually have to have a D- Measuring Competition, go race. If you actually have to compete to satisfy some self worth need, go join the big kids and the real competitions where its “put up or shut up.” To turn FS into a true competition would be to turn it into something it could not be and ruin the community experience.

    Social points will bias FS towards an inner social clique. Anyone on the outside of that clique will be pretty much out of the game. Live in Frederick Md and able to ride with only a few FS members - yer at a huge disadvantage. you are an introvert or aspergers and you love to ride but you dont like lots of social interaction - you are hosed. You are part of S Arlington HDCC and like riding for donuts - you win. The rules bias the game and determine who wins. For a whole bucket of people FS becomes uninviting and a peripheral experience

    All recreational activity is social. That is a big reason we play. You dont get extra points for playing basketball with a team. you dont get extra points for playing disc golf with friends. You play. And then you go drink beer because you like the people you are with. you dont need a toy surprise award to give you an incentive to be social.

    The fact that you have to be awarded points to be social misses the point and begs some social issues. Do I really have to bribe you to talk to me??? And do I really want you crashing my social experience just so you could earn your stupid points? That happened last year with the social butterfly award which became the “crash other people’s coffee conversations” award which is one of the reasons I stopped going to coffee. If I am immersed in a delicious conversation with a friend, I dont want to be interrupted by a dingus taking a selfie.

    FS is a giggle. It’s design was to build community. I dont need points to talk to people. And if the only reason you will ride with me is to earn 50 points, maybe I should reflect on why it takes that type of incentive to get people to ride with me.
    Old man yells.......a coherent and sensible take.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcannon100 View Post
    It was never meant as a true competition. In terms of design, it really could not be. [COLOR=rgb(51, 51, 51)]Freezing Saddles was a game played amongst a community as we cycled through the winter. It was a farce, a giggle. It was pointless (ergo the games title, taken yes, from Whose Line is it Anways).[/COLOR]
    I know that's true, but it's obviously taken on a different life than originally intended. A life that takes itself perhaps a little more seriously than it should about community building, but nonetheless, that seems to be the thing people want to get out of it. If building community is indeed a core reason for the game, it does seem consistent to have the scoreboard be one that includes that concept. However that manifests itself.

    Social points will bias FS towards an inner social clique. Anyone on the outside of that clique will be pretty much out of the game. Live in Frederick Md and able to ride with only a few FS members - yer at a huge disadvantage. you are an introvert or aspergers and you love to ride but you dont like lots of social interaction - you are hosed. You are part of S Arlington HDCC and like riding for donuts - you win. The rules bias the game and determine who wins. For a whole bucket of people FS becomes uninviting and a peripheral experience
    That's a fair observation. People who live or commute in areas with denser FS participation would have an easier time riding with others.

    While this undermines the community building a bit, I wonder if it would be worth saying that riding with *anyone* earns you some [small amount] of extra credit. That would lessen the benefit to being in a FS-participation-rich area (e.g. Arlington) while still encouraging people to ride with others in the winter. It makes the competition a little less inwardly focused, which may or may not be desired.

    I think also with the proposed ideas of caps -- total point caps, per ride caps -- we're not talking about a huge advantage here either way. But, sure, if you rode a lot and consistently *and* happened to live in Arlington and work in DC, you'd definitely have an advantage in the points game.

    But we all agree the points game is really pointless, so I'm not sure we need to worry that much about it? Will fewer people really play if they think that to win they'd have to be more social? The fact that to win with miles-based rules, you'd need to ride at least 300 miles a week didn't seem to scare away participants.

    All recreational activity is social. That is a big reason we play. You dont get extra points for playing basketball with a team. you dont get extra points for playing disc golf with friends. You play. And then you go drink beer because you like the people you are with. you dont need a toy surprise award to give you an incentive to be social.
    I think the difference here is that without some encouragement (especially in winter) to make cycling a team sport, it is most naturally going to be a solitary activity. In the cold and in the dark. So perhaps this idea is really to encourage teams to ride together. (And maybe it should be structured so that you get higher point bonuses for riding with your teammates?)

    FS is a giggle. It’s design was to build community.
    I think we definitely agree on both those points, which is why we'd even consider changing up the rules. I might sign up this year -- if it's not already full
    Last edited by hozn; 12-01-2017 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Jane Austen sentences ...

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    Economist's perspective.

    Does it really matter which measure (Traditional FS points, MASS points, FS with social points) is designated as "the real competition" and which is a "pointless prize"? People will follow and talk about whatever is interesting to them, I think, as long as leaderboards and figures are available on the website for any particular measure (its not that hard to have multiple such figures and leaderboards, is it?) Last year we had MASS points, but only a few people talked about them, IIRC. Whats wrong with just putting it all out there and "letting the market decide" so to speak?
    I think it makes sense to have a "most official" leaderboard. But I also think we should treat this competition lightly enough to be willing to change what that means from one year to the next. Maybe some formulas will make for more nail-biting finishes. Maybe some will just make people have more fun.

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    Get rid of the individual leaderboard and just track teams. That seems to be most in the spirit of what FS has become (for the better, fwiw).

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby View Post
    Get rid of the individual leaderboard and just track teams. That seems to be most in the spirit of what FS has become (for the better, fwiw).
    Yeah, I agree with that too. The individual leaderboard was never supposed to be an official leaderboard, I don't think. But obviously that became a crazy competition. Congrats on winning that, BTW; that is insanity.

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