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Thread: Idaho comes to Delaware

  1. #21
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    The other changes are welcome. I disagree with proposals that we are choosing to feed into the very worst charges that our opponents make against us. That we are scofflaws (the argument that the fact that we often don't stop is actually presented as an argument for changing the law); that we want special treatment; that we simply don't care about any other actors on the streetscape than ourselves.

    There is no argument for extending Idaho Stop that doesn't apply equally to cars, or for which cars do not have an equally valid alternative argument, save one: there are not enough of us to affect anything.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crickey7 View Post
    The other changes are welcome. I disagree with proposals that we are choosing to feed into the very worst charges that our opponents make against us. That we are scofflaws (the argument that the fact that we often don't stop is actually presented as an argument for changing the law); that we want special treatment; that we simply don't care about any other actors on the streetscape than ourselves.

    There is no argument for extending Idaho Stop that doesn't apply equally to cars, or for which cars do not have an equally valid alternative argument, save one: there are not enough of us to affect anything.
    The other changes are evidence that advocacy for the Delaware stop is not bad politics, because it has not prevented significant advances on other issues.

    The fact is that most people in all modes are scofflaws - most cyclist treat stop as yield, most drivers drive over the speed limit, and most pedestrians jaywalk from time to time. The worst charge our opponents make is that we are uniquely scofflaws, which is false. Anyway, failing to change the law has not resulted in any diminution of such attacks in states that have not changed the law.

    As for special treatment, different treatment for different classes of vehicles is widespread. Trucks excluded from some roads, bikes are excluded from limited access highways, motor vehicles are excluded from MultiUse Trails and from bike lanes, pedestrians are excluded from bike lanes (and from roads where a sidewalk exists) bikes are excluded from select sidewalks, bikes are allowed to filter, pedestrians are not required to stop at stop signs.

    As for the arguments for why treating stop a yield makes more sense for bikes than for cars, I find the rationales compelling, but realize you want "proof" which I cannot give to your standard. Anyway, I am concerned with the incremental benefits and costs of the law, not with a theoretical modal equity. The City of Alexandria is currently considering maximum parking space mandates for commercial buildings (Tysons already has such maximums) but no maximums for bike parking. Would you protest that?

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  5. #23
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    This is the bus stop closed to where I live.
    https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8354...7i13312!8i6656

    See the crosswalk? Its not on the most direct path from the building front door to the bus stop. I over three years there, I have never seen anyone use the crosswalk to get to the busstop. Everyone walks the straight route instead (and no, that is not an implicit crosswalk), and jaywalks. Everyone.

    Maybe the building is a unique enclave of scofflaws. I don't think so. The scofflaw cyclist meme is not caused by cyclist behavior. Its caused by the tendency of human beings to normalize what they understand from personal experience (midblock crossing, driving slightly over the speed limit, etc) and to not normalize what they do not understand. Pointing that out (and getting more butts on bikes) is the way to deal with that, not by denying the truth (which is that yes, most cyclists treat stops as yields)

    Also this
    One of our Bike Delaware members was ticketed at an empty stop sign on a quiet residential street in a college town,” says Bare. “Everyone – including the police who were on stop sign patrol intended for automobiles – thought it was silly. Getting the Delaware State Police on board was key.”
    Last edited by lordofthemark; 10-10-2017 at 03:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthemark View Post
    The other changes are evidence that advocacy for the Delaware stop is not bad politics, because it has not prevented significant advances on other issues.

    The fact is that most people in all modes are scofflaws - most cyclist treat stop as yield, most drivers drive over the speed limit, and most pedestrians jaywalk from time to time. The worst charge our opponents make is that we are uniquely scofflaws, which is false. Anyway, failing to change the law has not resulted in any diminution of such attacks in states that have not changed the law.
    As Crikey's spokesperson, I think the point being made is, "Jeanne shouldn't Idaho stop because it impairs her ability to then advocate for enforcement/regulation of other modalities behaviors."

  7. #25
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    I treat a stop sign exactly like the car drivers do. I slow down to ascertain that all is clear and safe and then proceed through. This is exactly what drivers do. Pretty much all of them.
    A couple of differences.
    1) Since I am typically going more slowly as I approach, I do not need to slow quite as much to have equal amount of time to ascertain safety. So if they roll through at 4-5 mph, I probably roll through at about 7-8. At stop signs where I am next to a vehicle (say, in a bike lane), I will deliberately match my speed to the vehicle just to see. I think my observation of 4-5 mph is pretty accurate.
    2) My head is outside; theirs is inside. My head is higher than most drivers, I have no blind spots, and I can hear a lot better. This makes my ability to ascertain safe crossing better than theirs.

    Legalizing the Idaho Stop, as correctly practiced, is no more than legalizing the equivalent behavior of motorists, that is readily accepted by other motorists, by people riding bikes.

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  9. #26
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    You've made an argument for legalizing all rolling stops, not Idaho Stops.

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  11. #27
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    In case anyone wants it, here is the 2010 study on the Idaho stop and safety. 14.5% drop in injuries is nothing to sneeze at. I hope we can repeat this study in Delaware!
    Last edited by Zack; 10-10-2017 at 04:52 PM. Reason: broken link

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    That was a one-year change. No one draws conclusions from single year results.

  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crickey7 View Post
    You've made an argument for legalizing all rolling stops, not Idaho Stops.
    In a sense, true. Since that's the way it is anyway.
    And I don't see giant piles of bodies at every intersection.

  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crickey7 View Post
    You've made an argument for legalizing all rolling stops, not Idaho Stops.
    Sure. Bikes and motorists in electric convertibles with zero - length hoods like VW camper vans and their radios turned off and their tops down. I won't sweat the detail of the windshield pillars creating blind spots or the increased threat posed by their greater mass if they can match us in the other regards. Let 'em slow roll.

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