Likes Likes:  232
Dislikes Dislikes:  4
ELITE ELITE:  19
Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 130

Thread: Guys - don't shout at women

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Big Pink in Buckingham
    Posts
    421
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    This thread was top of mind today when I encountered a rider who had stopped on the Rosslyn hill and was staring at her bike. No, I didn't yell at her, but I stopped to see if I could help. It was a simple fix (she had overshifted her derailleur and the chain had gotten stuck). I was as respectful and kind as I'm capable of (shut up, everyone), but I just don't know if the fact that I waited until she was up and riding along might be considered demeaning or not. She told me I could go ahead (she had to walk up the hill a bit to get to a flatter spot), but I waited anyway. I'm not sure if I would have with a man.

    It seems like a tricky line to tread: did I unintentionally make her feel like a stupid, helpless woman? Or not?

    Is just the fact that I was a man helping out a woman create a sexist dynamic a priori?
    One sure solution to your conundrum is to just not help people. But that would make for a sh:tty community. If you see someone who needs help, help them. Who cares what others think. Not in this conversation, but big picture, I think there are constituencies that actually think helping people or fellow countrymen is a bad thing, or a weak thing and have constructed entire policies and positions to dissuade people from helping each other. Catch me on a bad day and I'll call that sociopathic and sick. So I help people when I can. Or I feel bad about myself later if I don't because those sick voices are inside my head and tempted me into the wrong decision.

    Just help people. That is the only decision that has the possibility of being positive. Not helping has no chance of being positive.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    Is just the fact that I was a man helping out a woman create a sexist dynamic a priori?
    Just be cool. And if you're sensing she's uncomfortable, acknowledge it somehow. You can either say "I'm sorry, I hope that didn't sound too mansplainy" or even as you're telling her why her bike wasn't working you can say "Yeah, this happens sometimes and I remember the first time it happened to me I was wasn't sure how to fix it either."

    The stories shared on the Women and Bicycles group are horrifying. I've changed my commute home a bit to avoid someone I used to pass every day because he skeeved me out so much.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Vienna, VA to Farragut North
    Posts
    1,592
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'll take Judd's bait.

    I think the blog post raised several distinct issues. To the extent it perhaps conflated some of those issues, I feel regret and a sense of missed opportunity. In the end, it probably doesn't matter because the folks who need to see themselves will likely not read the blog or if they do, not see themselves in it.

    1. The paths are crowded, getting more so, and there is a small subset of cyclists, most of them men but some women too, who behave in a fashion that makes the experience unpleasant or unsafe for other trail users. He dispatched with this issue with the standard WABA advice in his first set of bullet points. I think it is sound advice and would concur with all he said.

    2. From there, he pivots to a discussion of sexism on the trails. I'll get back to sexism in a minute, but in my opinion, it's not so easy -- the bad behavior he just described affects not just women, but impacts other cyclists, runners, dog walkers, children, dogs -- of both genders. I have witnessed a cyclist let fly a string of obscenities at an elementary school age girl who was suddenly in his path while he moved into oncoming traffic to make a pass on a blind curve on the Custis. Something tells me he wouldn't have a different response if it were a little boy. I also wonder if the out of shape men I see struggling on the trail don't feel the same condescension? If not worse? And would they admit it if they did? I imagine the "entitled macho nonsense" might be an even bigger barrier for men who are not part of the lycra fraternity.

    3. Sexism -- Like any woman, I have been subjected to comments about my appearance -- mostly by drivers or pedestrians -- but I consider this an issue for our larger society more than the cycling community. As for condescending comments about seat height, mechanical issues, etc., sadly it appears to be real, though I wonder if that's less sexism and more a function of super devoted cycling evangelists trying to educate the unworthy? And because most super devoted cycling evangelists are men, it comes across as condescending sexism?

    What does annoy me? (And I'm cribbing from a comment I wrote on Strava this morning): For my own part, if I pass a guy (and I think long and hard before I pass any guy, no matter how slow) and he musters the effort to pass me but then slows down to original pace, I just slow down too and go his pace -- it's not worth the effort IMO. Understand, I'm not talking about two people going about the same speed but have relative strengths/weaknesses on hills or what not -- I'm talking about a much slower cyclist who is making an obvious effort not to lose the "race" to a "girl." Even if the race is only in his mind.

    4. Personal Safety -- I suspect women think about this a lot more than men -- in fact, my first post to the forum was asking about etiquette around unannounced drafting. For my part, if I'm stopped by the side of the trail with a mechanical or flat, I don't mind another cyclist offering help, no matter how inartfully worded, but I guess reasonable minds can differ as to the wording. I always say, "Do you have everything you need?" What they need could include expertise, but I'm making no assumptions. If you want to ride in my slipstream -- especially if the trails are uncrowded -- please say something. I won't speak for others, but for me it goes beyond courtesy; it impacts my sense of personal security.

    I'll end as I began: the folks who need the wake up call probably won't read any of this or see themselves in it if they do. What they need is the cycling equivalent of my old softball captain, an affable guy who would take aside the guys who took it too seriously and tell them to find a competitive men's league if they want to hold themselves and others to a high standard. If you find yourself yelling at little kids on the trail, you need to find some fast company and a group ride on the roads.

    Liz
    Last edited by eminva; 06-02-2017 at 11:39 AM.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Mount Vernon
    Posts
    500
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Last night, I gave unsolicited advice to a non-cycling woman at Gravelley Point. She was there with four kids who were about 4 or 5 years old. They came to watch the planes. She was pointing up at the planes with three of the kids around her. They were all off the trail on the broad dirt section. They were looking up. The fourth kid was unattended on the thin grass section on the opposite (airport) side of the trail. He looked up and tracked a plane as it passed over his head. He followed the plane and stepped onto the trail.

    I was approaching from the river side. I saw a cyclist going at a reasonable speed approaching from the parking lot side. I pointed at the kid as he was about to step on the trail. But the cyclists didn't see me.

    He missed wiping the kid out by inches.

    The caregiver never saw any of it. She likes planes too apparently. As I rolled past I said (pointing at the near victim) "He almost got hit." She looked at me as if to say "Moi?"

    My voice was level. I wasn't mansplaining. As my wife and I learned from our day care provider, never ever turn your back on a toddler.

    Just another evening on the MVT.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    MoCo
    Posts
    932
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eminva View Post
    I always say, "Do you have everything you need?"
    That's my takeaway. This phrase is perfect for offers of assistance. Thanks.

  6. #46
    jrenaut's Avatar
    jrenaut is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Columbia Heights, DC
    Posts
    3,989
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crickey7 View Post
    That's my takeaway. This phrase is perfect for offers of assistance. Thanks.
    Yeah, I love that phrase. I was changing a flat along the W&OD and someone said that to me. It assumes competence but lets you ask for help without wounding your pride.

  7. #47
    KLizotte's Avatar
    KLizotte is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Arlington, VA by way of MA and London, UK
    Posts
    3,644
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    This thread was top of mind today when I encountered a rider who had stopped on the Rosslyn hill and was staring at her bike. No, I didn't yell at her, but I stopped to see if I could help. It was a simple fix (she had overshifted her derailleur and the chain had gotten stuck). I was as respectful and kind as I'm capable of (shut up, everyone), but I just don't know if the fact that I waited until she was up and riding along might be considered demeaning or not. She told me I could go ahead (she had to walk up the hill a bit to get to a flatter spot), but I waited anyway. I'm not sure if I would have with a man.

    It seems like a tricky line to tread: did I unintentionally make her feel like a stupid, helpless woman? Or not?

    Is just the fact that I was a man helping out a woman create a sexist dynamic a priori?
    Speaking as a woman with almost zero bike mechanic skills (I'm really good at home repairs though) I've been helped out by more random guys than I can count and was always very, very grateful even when they explained things I already knew since I see them being offered in good faith and they have no idea what I do or do not know. Fortunately none of the guys were creepy. And if a guy hangs back to make sure that I'm truly A-OK then I consider that being a true gentleman. She probably told you to go ahead because she didn't want to hold you up any longer and may have been a bit embarrassed having to walk. I would have told you it was okay to move on as well in most cases. But overall I've been super impressed by how helpful guys have been on the trails. Thank you!

    I've also helped a bunch of guys and gals with flat tires over the years and no one has ever acted annoyed or embarrassed, including the guys.

    I suspect some women have had creepy men approach them and are a bit leery after a bad episode or else just aren't aware of the "pay it forward" mentality of the cycling community. I admit that I'm beyond the age that most men would want to harass so perhaps it's a different experience for the younger, skinny ones.

    But please don't hesitate to offer help.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Manassas, VA
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    "do you need help".... that's not acceptable? Are you kidding me?

  9. #49
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Dan View Post
    "do you need help".... that's not acceptable? Are you kidding me?
    I've said this to men and received almost growling negative responses. "Got everything you need?" works better for both genders.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Falls church
    Posts
    1,314
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jrenaut View Post
    Yeah, I love that phrase. I was changing a flat along the W&OD and someone said that to me. It assumes competence but lets you ask for help without wounding your pride.
    Agree. It is my go to as well. This is how W&OD trail patrol teaches you to offer help. An open offer not because it looks like you need it but because it is right to offer. It is also why I joined them. I always offer but now I have a easy to see reason.

    I can make a bike from scrap metal but I also got caught out during a road group ride with a flat and a tube with a too short stem. We all have or good and bad moments.

    We need to reset and think that people mean well until strong evidence says otherwise. There are plenty of creeps and stuck ups but I still think goodhearted people outnumber them. "You need any help" means "Hi fellow bike rider on the side of the road, can a small bit of help or spare part on my part help fix a big problem you are stuck with and let me pay forward the solid someone did for me last summer?" Not "Hey you sorry unprepared dumbass, Can I show you how a real Man/woman does that?"
    Last edited by Vicegrip; 06-02-2017 at 01:35 PM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •