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Thread: Guys - don't shout at women

  1. #111
    dasgeh's Avatar
    dasgeh is offline Queen of Family Biking & All Things Kidical
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    Quote Originally Posted by baiskeli View Post
    I am not interested in a long discussion about why you read words one way and I read them another, etc. That would take all day and probably get nowhere anyway.

    If you think nobody said that, then great. Everyone here agrees that yelling at women is often, but not always, sexism. We're finished.
    What you're not seeing is this:

    You seem to have read this:
    Here are a few simple ways to avoid perpetuating systemic gender discrimination while riding your bike:

    Don’t shout stuff at women.
    And understood that to mean that
    Men who yell at women are sexist.
    Then you went out of your way (multiple times, in multiple fora) to say
    NOT ALL MEN WHO YELL AT WOMEN ARE SEXIST.
    In other words, a bunch of people are making completely reasonable points about ways to avoid perpetuating systemic gender discrimination while riding your bike, and you're yelling at them.

    That does translate to shut up and sit down, which is not helpful to the conversation.

  2. #112
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    The words you quoted are not the only words involved. But again, I'm not interested in this discussion. Nor do I accept anyone speaking for me or putting thoughts in my head or telling me how I read words. You cannot read my mind. I only speak for myself. Reasonable people can disagree. We all apparently agree about everything important, so there's no point in belaboring how we got there. Let's move on.
    Last edited by baiskeli; 06-07-2017 at 12:34 PM.

  3. #113
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    Generally, it is not helpful to pit one group against another when the desire is to fix a social ill.

    I agree it is not good when people yell rude things and when it occurs it affects us all even if I am a man and this most often happens to women.

    Changing the tone from "Men don't yell" to "Don't Be Rude" would make me more receptive to helping fix the problem.

  4. #114
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    TwoWheelsDC is offline I really need to log off the internet and go for a ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarBikeCar View Post

    Changing the tone from "Men don't yell" to "Don't Be Rude" would make me more receptive to helping fix the problem.
    Wanna know how I know you're part of the problem?

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  6. #115
    dasgeh's Avatar
    dasgeh is offline Queen of Family Biking & All Things Kidical
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    Quote Originally Posted by baiskeli View Post
    The words you quoted are not the only words involved. But again, I'm not interested in this discussion. Nor do I accept anyone speaking for me or putting thoughts in my head or telling me how I read words. You cannot read my mind. I only speak for myself. Reasonable people can disagree. We all apparently agree about everything important, so there's no point in belaboring how we got there. Let's move on.

    I've asked what words you think mean otherwise. If you don't want to engage, fine. If you think you're 100% right, fine. But you don't see it yet. Sorry.

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    Reasonable people can disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarBikeCar View Post
    Generally, it is not helpful to pit one group against another when the desire is to fix a social ill.
    Except sometimes there is a truth behind the fact that some groups are both more at fault, and (therefor) more able to enact change that can fix a problem. So it makes sense to target messaging to that group.

    I'm sorry you haven't been able to reflect on the fact that in reality, men do things that make women feel unsafe or unwelcome on the trail. Some on purpose, some by accident. But the fact is, those actions are still done, and men should take responsibility for changing their behavior. This article, and most of this thread focused on ways we can fix those accidental (and occasionally) on purpose things we do that make others feel unsafe, like not following to close, and asking if people need help in ways that aren't disrespectful. It doesn't mean the women among us wont find this information helpful too, but there is a solid and good reason to target this type of message to men.


    Last night while riding home I got to reflect on this more than I would have wanted. A man tailed me VERY close for over a mile on the MVT. I began instinctively thinking about places that were public that I could pull over to get him away from me since I was getting nervous--he was ON the back of my bike for much longer than it would take to pass me. Luckily, he peeled off around Royal St so I didn't have to, but I was actually beginning to become nervous since it was beginning to get dark, and the trail was empty. The fact that I had to consider modifying my commute because I was scared, even though I will give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume it was an accidental/unaware scare on his part, is the type of thing men need to be aware of so they can really consider the effects their actions have.
    Last edited by Emm; 06-07-2017 at 12:59 PM.

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  10. #118
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    Rereading the WABA article, it is mostly speaking about general tendencies, and better behavior. The only place where I can see individuals called out is the intro, about the recent experiences of a particular woman. I did not read that as making a case against the particular male cyclists involved, but as serving as an example and illustration of the kinds of things the article went on to talk about. Plus, a lot of people feel real world anecdotes make writing of this kind better. Is it POSSIBLE that neither of the male cyclists who did the yelling that was called out were sexist - sure. Is it likely - no. Does it matter to the point the article was making? No, IMO. I think people are getting stuck on that.

    I mean I often discuss behavior I see by drivers on the road, and attribute it to windshield perspective, or lack of familiarity with biking. Is it POSSIBLE that those incidents actually involve a driver who is a also a sometime bike commuter, but is just an all around jerk? Sure it is POSSIBLE. Is it possible that its actually someone who IS on the way to do open heart surgery, but is running late? Sure, it is POSSIBLE. Since I am not convicting someone in a court of law for "windshield perspective" I think its okay to go with the probabilities, and whatever policy point I was making.

    There also is a tendency many have to personalize discussions that are about society or policy. So , I might say "we need to decrease the commute mode share for autos in Alexandria" And in many circles someone is sure to respond with "I have three kids I need to drop off at different schools, and I work in Chantilly! We can't all get where we need to on transit or by bike! Don't take away my freedom, hipster elitist!" And I am like, WTF? Do I really relate to the world THAT oddly, that I didn't see that as the logical takeaway from what I said? I do see that kind of thinking in many of these discussions of discrimination and privilege. Sometimes its the fault of folks overly making the personal political - but sometimes its people making the political, personal.

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  12. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emm View Post
    Except sometimes there is a truth behind the fact that some groups are both more at fault, and (therefor) more able to enact change that can fix a problem. So it makes sense to target messaging to that group.
    When you have a demographics that is the primary source of a social ill you definitely target them.

    What I hear with "Men don't yell" is not an attempt to target the message to a demographic to reach the few that cause the social ill, but an attempt to demonize the whole demographic.

    The reluctance to accept that feedback as legitimate is telling.

  13. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarBikeCar View Post
    When you have a demographics that is the primary source of a social ill you definitely target them.

    What I hear with "Men don't yell" is not an attempt to target the message to a demographic to reach the few that cause the social ill, but an attempt to demonize the whole demographic.

    The reluctance to accept that feedback as legitimate is telling.

    Sigh. Responding and disagreeing is not delegitimating. Arguing is not the same as bullying. (There IS some bullying in some parts of the social justice movement, but that is not what I see here - I see rational argument)

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