Let's talk about e scooters

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Originally Posted by TwoWheelsDC

I seem to remember reading an article a few weeks ago that judged e-bikeshares were ultimately the fastest, followed by e-scooters (I may have that backward...it was close either way, and now I can't find the article). I haven't tried a scooter yet (personally I would get on a Jump or CaBi+ before a e-scooter), but my understanding is that scooters are not suited to going up hills of any kind. So around downtown they may be okay, but if you're going up to Columbia Heights or something, you'll want to grab a Jump or CaBi+.

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I believe that, but I still feel that a scooter is "fast enough" for cruising around between transport stops without a helmet etc. And it's only a matter of time before there are stronger motors, etc. Conceptually the scooter makes more sense to me for short trips from pretty much every angle other than "hauling capacity".

I'd always rather ride *my* bike. But I think I'd rather use an e-scooter than a cabi if I'm just looking for convenient short-trip transportation.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

On scooters, it seems like they are less stable, particularly at speed, and less able to carry stuff than bikes. But they take up less space and they are easier to get on and off than bikes. I don't think e-assist fundamentally changes those facts, they just make it easier to go faster on either a scooter or a bike.

Given that, I think some people will prefer bikes, and others will prefer scooters. For the rest - people who are fine with either - scooters are probably better for shorter trips (particularly because they are slower), bikes for longer.

Also, early adopters of anything are going to be less risk adverse than the general population. Plus, the first few times anyone uses anything, they're going to make mistakes/misjudge/etc. Finally, new stuff generally seems weird and stands out to most people. So, I'm not at all surprised that the average person sees people using scooters now as not well-behaved. I imagine that the scooter-ers take risks more than most and that they misjudge how fast they can go in new situations. Also, an adult riding a scooter sticks out to the average person more than other things. And some people are just jerks. But I rather have those jerks on scooters than in a car. We should address putting limits on bad behavior through regulation and infrastructure.

Alexandria to roll out scooter program The Post's Gridlock reports the City of Alexandria will run its own scooter trial

And not an e-scooter to be seen in Frankfurt

According to Catherine Rampell E-scooters are like Q-tips.

“In both cases, the products are marketed with explicit warnings about how not to use them, even though everyone knows that’s precisely the way pretty much every customer will use them.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.bdf71c007ed6

Looking for an E-scooter? Try the Potomac.

https://slate.com/technology/2018/12...vandalism.html

I've taken about 10 e-scooter trips since moving to DC in September. I have to say, as far as a last minute option when trying to transfer from the red line to the silver line in Downtown DC, they're a nice little addition to the commute. I've also used them while museum hopping with friends.

As I saw before in the thread "two wheels good" sums up my opinion. If they can replace short-distance lyft/uber rides (assuming the riders are sober) I'm all for it.

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Originally Posted by jonkislin

I've taken about 10 e-scooter trips since moving to DC in September. I have to say, as far as a last minute option when trying to transfer from the red line to the silver line in Downtown DC, they're a nice little addition to the commute. I've also used them while museum hopping with friends.

As I saw before in the thread "two wheels good" sums up my opinion. If they can replace short-distance lyft/uber rides (assuming the riders are sober) I'm all for it.

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Definitely tell powers that be about your experience and opinion. A quick email to mobility@arlingtonva.us will help support scooters in Arlington.

I'm a contract repair person for Bird- The things some people do to these scooters borders on impressive... LOL

There were several parts of one sticking out of a trash can by the WW2 memorial this morning like calamari legs. Gave me a chuckle.

I like the concept of there being another electric transportation option that may reduce car trips out there. I got to try a scooter a few weeks ago when there were no bikes to be found where I was, and it was fun, if a little frustrating since the speed was clearly throttled down. That's probably for the best.

However, they are heavy and I whacked my ankle pretty good when I was trying to swing it off a curb.

The Virginia Bicycling Federation reported e-scooters were discussed yesterday in the Virginia General Assembly, House Transportation Committee. HB2752 "with lobbyists representing both Bird & Lime speaking in favor and law enforcement and other officials from Arlington, Alexandria, & Charlottesvile asking for the bill to be tabled until their in-progress Pilot Projects are completed and digested. Despite those requests, the bill was reported on to the full Trans Comm by a 7-3 vote, and the prevailing discussion seemed to be that the scooters would be permitted only on bike lanes, trails and sidewalks, and that all jurisdictions would have the authority to pass ordinances banning them from their sidewalks , if they chose to do so, which must have been the part that the Bird rep was unhappy with.

When we had a chance to look the language over after the meeting, it appears that the scooters will also be permitted on the highway, but not capable of moving at more than 20 mph. There seem to be enough unresolved questions here, and it was obvious that the Bird representative did not get what he wanted, so these questions will be discussed and clarified at the next steps in the process, and we will be anxious to see that they don’t result in any restrictions that spill over to the bicyclists."(*)

(*) my comment...or to e-bikes which are currently permitted to ride on sidewalks in Virginia.

Was the January 17 text amended?

The January 17 text only allowed banning scooters on sidewalks the way current law allows banning bikes - when the jurisdiction "conspicuously" posts signage. At least in Alexandria, City staff seem very reluctant to do that.

The rules about operating on roads ("highways") are interesting - no scooters on the road where the speed limit is > 25, and even on roads <= 25, the scooters must be ridden on the sidewalk if there's no bike lane, unless scooters are banned from the sidewalk. I imagine this won't go over well with either scooter operators or pedestrians.

Also noteworthy: scooters would be required to have rear reflectors but, unlike bikes, not tail lights, even though the reflectors would be so low to the ground that I question their effectiveness (and the likelihood that they'd stay clean enough to be effective), and even though rental scooters have power supplies so they would only need to add relatively cheap LEDs to get active rear lighting.

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Originally Posted by peterw_diy

The rules about operating on roads ("highways") are interesting - no scooters on the road where the speed limit is > 25, and even on roads <= 25, the scooters must be ridden on the sidewalk if there's no bike lane, unless scooters are banned from the sidewalk. I imagine this won't go over well with either scooter operators or pedestrians.

Also noteworthy: scooters would be required to have rear reflectors but, unlike bikes, not tail lights, even though the reflectors would be so low to the ground that I question their effectiveness (and the likelihood that they'd stay clean enough to be effective), and even though rental scooters have power supplies so they would only need to add relatively cheap LEDs to get active rear lighting.

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I think not having lights is pretty consistent with not being allowed on the road--bikes & pedestrians don't need reflectors or lights on sidewalks, either.

ArlNow is reporting that Jump and Spin are looking to expand operations to Arlington County, Spin for scooters and Jump for scooters and dockless ebikeshare. The article mentions three companies Bird, Lime, and Lyft already operate scooters in Arlington. Source: https://www.arlnow.com/2019/02/06/tw...-in-arlington/

Consumer Reports publishes national crash data on scooter injuries for the period fall 2017-July 2018
https://www.consumerreports.org/prod...or-first-time/

WABA is inviting members to take a survey on e-scooters. This is what I typed in the comments section:

Please contact Jeff Marootian (DDOT), the Arlington County Board, and the National Park Service to get DC and neighboring jurisdictions to revise 18 DCMR §§ 1201.18, NPS trail rules in the Capital region, and Arlington County Code § 14.2-64.1 to permit Class 1 and 2 ebikes and electric scooters to legally use the Potomac bridge sidewalk paths. Please ask DC to revise the 2015 Motor Vehicle Collision Recovery Act to give riders of Class 1 and 2 ebikes and electric scooters the same protection from drivers that pedal cyclists and segway riders now have. It is inequitable I have to break a city regulation, NPS regs, and the Arlington County Code, just to safely cross the river to commute to work on a Class 1 or 2 ebike or electric scooter, and then be exposed to legal tort jeopardy riding the streets with cars.

With Maryland considering HB 939/SB 935 to legalize Class 1 and 2 ebikes on trails by October 2019, with Capital Bikeshare talking about expanding its ebike fleet to 600 bikes this year, and with NOVA Parks changing their regulation to permit ebikes on the W&OD trail, it is time the region coordinated efforts to legalize Class 1 and 2 ebikes and electric scooters on bike trails and multi use paths, particularly the river crossings and sections of paths on either side that connect to street bicycle infrastructure. The unintended consequences of failure to take action include continuing to expose ebike and scooter commuters to legal tort jeopardy in auto collisions, and invalidating riders liability insurance in collisions with pedestrians on paths. This is wrong, please use my WABA subscription fees to pursue equitable treatment for Class 1 and 2 ebike and electric scooter riders. Thank you.

Thanks for providing detailed comments Dewey with some specific legislation and how it impacts you. Also, thank you for being a WABA member.

The survey results will help inform the WABA board’s formulation of an official position on e-scooters (or the decision to continue to not have a position).

I’m curious what others think (be nice though).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here's my comment:

Scooters are a fantastic addition to the transportation mix in our region. They also increase public support for transport infrastructure for vehicles other than cars, which has previously been dominated by the insular bike community. As the scooter-riding public realizes that non-car transport is viable and even desirable, and infrastructure is lacking for anything other than cars or pedestrians, then public support for "bike" lanes will increase. Therefore, scooters, apart from a great transit solution also represent a tide that will raise all ships.

Thanks Judd, given NPS controls the Virginia MUP/trail approaches it will probably take Congressional action to effect change for Potomac river crossings. When Maryland (Virginia maybe next year) adopt the 3-Class model ebike legislation, that will legalize Class 1 and 2 ebikes riding on trails and MUP's unless localities choose to prohibit them, it's unclear if that will oblige local jurisdictions to review their reasoning and change the regulatory wording to explicitly call out Classes of ebikes and electric scooters to which a ban might continue to apply. I believe it's worth making the regulatory changes to DCMR & Arlington County Code now to apply a consistent region wide legal framework for Class 1 and 2 ebikes and electric scooters enabling riders to commute safely and legally to and from the District then transition to on-street bicycle infrastructure when we reach the other side. As Buschwacker points out, encouraging more commuters to choose Capital Bikeshare Plus or dockless electric scooter should hopefully mean more people on bikes and scooters advocating for safer cycling infrastructure. It might also encourage more electric bike and scooter riders to consider taking out liability and/or personal injury insurance. There is no justification for denying legal protection from driver's lawyers when we ride in the street.

I yielded to an e-scooter today.

Yesterday an e-scooter rider couldn't stop for some reason and rammed into the bulletproof glass at our guard building. He came up with his face all bloody.

There, now I've talked about e-scooters.

Quartz had an interesting article on the lifespan of Bird Scooters in Louisville, KY.
https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does...data-suggests/

The authors found that the average scooter had a lifespan of 28.8 days and traveled 163.2 miles over 92 trips. They also estimated that Bird lost $293 per scooter.

I recall reading somewhere that someone analyzed Lime data in DC and estimated those scooters lasted about 28 days.

I like that scooters are getting people out of cars and provide another great option for short trips. I'm a little concerned about how much waste might be involved.

Streetsblog mentioned a recent study of e-scooter injuries in Austin, TX https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/de...udy_5-2-19.pdf

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Originally Posted by dbehrend

Quartz had an interesting article on the lifespan of Bird Scooters in Louisville, KY.
https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does...data-suggests/

The authors found that the average scooter had a lifespan of 28.8 days and traveled 163.2 miles over 92 trips. They also estimated that Bird lost $293 per scooter.

I recall reading somewhere that someone analyzed Lime data in DC and estimated those scooters lasted about 28 days.

I like that scooters are getting people out of cars and provide another great option for short trips. I'm a little concerned about how much waste might be involved.

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Fascinating numbers. Wonder what the original business cost/revenue projections pitched to the investors looked like.

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Originally Posted by dbehrend

Quartz had an interesting article on the lifespan of Bird Scooters in Louisville, KY.
https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does...data-suggests/

The authors found that the average scooter had a lifespan of 28.8 days and traveled 163.2 miles over 92 trips. They also estimated that Bird lost $293 per scooter.

I recall reading somewhere that someone analyzed Lime data in DC and estimated those scooters lasted about 28 days.

I like that scooters are getting people out of cars and provide another great option for short trips. I'm a little concerned about how much waste might be involved.

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People are trying to change that

https://mashable.com/article/escoote...ed-new-models/

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Originally Posted by lordofthemark

People are trying to change that

https://mashable.com/article/escoote...ed-new-models/

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It seems these companies were a bit naive when it comes to understanding the type of abuse these machines might see. But better durability usually translates to higher cost, it will be interesting to see how they navigate through this. Wonder what the life expectancy of a regular e-scooter user is?

Yes. I agree. I am new to this forum and hoping to talk with all the bike enthusiasts!

Apparently e-scooters do not need to be ridden to cause harm...

https://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/ar...c-13842925.php

The view from Trollheim, 5/17/2019.
Attachment 20086

The free weekly Alexandria Times this week pulled a hard 180 this week and published a piece sympathetic to scooters, focusing on new riders. It has nice bits about replacing car trips, reducing environmental impact, etc. -- but I LOLed on this scooter apologist quote about Scofflaw Scooterists:

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If you are already going to be inconsiderate and leave something in the way and diminish a public good, you were already going to do that. The scooter didn’t change it."

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As if the riders who park the bikes badly and the residents who abuse the scooters wake up with a "let's go do some crimes" mentality and, you know, it's just a question of which large metallic object they were gonna block the sidewalk with. Ha!

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Originally Posted by peterw_diy

The free weekly Alexandria Times this week pulled a hard 180 this week and published a piece sympathetic to scooters, focusing on new riders. It has nice bits about replacing car trips, reducing environmental impact, etc. -- but I LOLed on this scooter apologist quote about Scofflaw Scooterists:
As if the riders who park the bikes badly and the residents who abuse the scooters wake up with a "let's go do some crimes" mentality and, you know, it's just a question of which large metallic object they were gonna block the sidewalk with. Ha!

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I think the point is that some people are going to be inconsiderate no matter what. The people who park bikes on wheelchair ramps and toss scooters into the creek are the same ones who ditch their shopping carts in the middle of the lane in parking lots and spit their gum out on the sidewalk. IOW, just standard, run-of-the-mill nest-shitters.

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Originally Posted by Drewdane

I think the point is that some people are going to be inconsiderate no matter what. The people who park bikes on wheelchair ramps and toss scooters into the creek are the same ones who park their cars blocking curb cuts, ditch their shopping carts in the middle of the lane in parking lots and spit their gum out on the sidewalk. IOW, just standard, run-of-the-mill nest-shitters.

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FTFY

Cars can't be picked up and moved aside, so I'd say if the inconsiderate have to get around, I rather have them on scooters.

I’m gonna guess that the last user is typically not the one who tosses an e-scooter into a creek, off a bridge, whatever. However, holding that last user financially responsible for the scooter may encourage a little more user attention to leaving them in places less likely to result in the e-scooter winding up in a creek, off a bridge, whatever.
I am also gonna guess that the e-scooter providers are not going to want to go that route because it may hurt business more than it reduces equipment loss.
Getting successfully sued by someone who sustains injuries as a result of an improperly abandoned e-scooter might move the needle.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...=.bf9fd116ec1b

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Originally Posted by lordofthemark

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...=.bf9fd116ec1b

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So, will there be one or two of these placed on the 14th Street Bridge sidepath?

Yesterday on the ride home I passed an e-scootee at about 2/3rds of the way to the Virginia side who appeared to be dealing with a scooter that ran out of e-.

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Originally Posted by peterw_diy

The free weekly Alexandria Times this week pulled a hard 180 this week and published a piece sympathetic to scooters, focusing on new riders. It has nice bits about replacing car trips, reducing environmental impact, etc. -- but I LOLed on this scooter apologist quote about Scofflaw Scooterists:
As if the riders who park the bikes badly and the residents who abuse the scooters wake up with a "let's go do some crimes" mentality and, you know, it's just a question of which large metallic object they were gonna block the sidewalk with. Ha!

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Yesterday evening, as I was riding down King from Beauregard to North Hampton, I saw one scooter rider riding on the sidewalk (west side of King) and five, count em, five cars blocking crosswalks (one the crosswalk at Beauregard on the east side of King, four at 28th and King, on the east side of King, two on each side of 28th) So, er, yeah.

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Originally Posted by lordofthemark

Yesterday evening, as I was riding down King from Beauregard to North Hampton, I saw one scooter rider riding on the sidewalk (west side of King) and five, count em, five cars blocking crosswalks (one the crosswalk at Beauregard on the east side of King, four at 28th and King, on the east side of King, two on each side of 28th) So, er, yeah.

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Parked and blocking, or temporarily blocking with vehicle operators inside?

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Originally Posted by peterw_diy

Parked and blocking, or temporarily blocking with vehicle operators inside?

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Temporarily blocking - but anyone trying to cross with the light would have had to go outside the crosswalk to get around. A friend of mine got hit by a truck that way, her bike was totaled, but by a miracle and good instincts she was not badly hurt.

But yeah, lots of people, both drivers and people engaged in the public discourse, don't think that cars "temporarily" blocking a crosswalk is a big deal. Not as bad as someone putting one of those ugly scooters on their lawn. Feh.

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Originally Posted by lordofthemark

Temporarily blocking - but anyone trying to cross with the light would have had to go outside the crosswalk to get around.

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Or wait. Radical suggestion, I know.

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Originally Posted by lordofthemark

A friend of mine got hit by a truck that way, her bike was totaled, but by a miracle and good instincts she was not badly hurt.

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That sucks but TBH it sounds like she was partially at fault.

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Originally Posted by lordofthemark

But yeah, lots of people, both drivers and people engaged in the public discourse, don't think that cars "temporarily" blocking a crosswalk is a big deal. Not as bad as someone putting one of those ugly scooters on their lawn. Feh.

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For any motorist in the right lane where right on red is allowed, blocking the crosswalk is pretty much required to proceed safely. So yeah, it's often not a big deal and is far more understandable than blocking right of way or littering private property with these rolling e-waste** contraptions, both of which are easily avoidable.

** $500 each and they don't even last five months?

Or wait. Radical suggestion, I know.

That sucks but TBH it sounds like she was partially at fault.


A. You can wait a very long time at some locations for a clear crosswalk (King and 28th being an example) Especially because the lights at 28th and King are set to enable traffic on King, so its a long time between walk phases across King. Assuming the sidewalk is not blocked the NEXT time you get a green across King. Its really not reasonable.
B. In any case lots of people won't wait. If we are worried about safety, we need to deal with what people will actually do.
C. It nice to see blame put on the rider/pedestrian, rather than the driver who is actually in violation of the law.

For any motorist in the right lane where right on red is allowed, blocking the crosswalk is pretty much required to proceed safely.

A. Or they could, as you said above, just wait. In this case just wait for a green to turn on.
B. In four of the five cases I was referring to, the cars were not attempting to turn on red. Just gridlocking the intersection with 28th
C. In the case where my friend was hit, there was no right on red issue, it was where a trail crossed a road. Again, they were just gridlocking, and ignoring the crosswalk.
D. Of course banning right on red at more locations is good for this very reason. I assume that has not been done at King and Beauregard to preserve auto LOS. And, ironically, because few pedestrians there. The whole intersection will be redone as part of the Alexandria Gateway project, I hope RTOR will be banned at that point. How RTOR on makes sense at a location where visibility requires blocking the crosswalk, I do not understand.


So yeah, it's often not a big deal and is far more understandable than blocking right of way or littering private property with these rolling e-waste** contraptions, both of which are easily avoidable.



There are plenty of options to improve scooter parking - including parking corrals at intersections (daylighting of which might help with the right on red problem above). Scooter companies are working on better scooters with longer service lives .