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cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 04:29 PM
This poll is intended only to guide the organizers in determining whether there is a consensus on the issue. No guarantees are made that we will follow the majority vote, if no actual consensus emerges.

Please read the discussion before voting. Three people so far have wanted to change their votes after reading the discussion. If this happens with you, please say so in a comment so that we can keep track.

Someone who uses an ELF (and considers it a bicycle) has now put in a registration. I'm assuming he plans to use the ELF for his miles. We therefore need to determine what vehicles are permitted to be counted in the competition.

My own inclination is to count miles by bikes that are primarily human powered, even if they have e-assist for uphills with a heavy bike and children aboard (and remember that one of our most beloved members uses such a bike), but not to allow anything that is primarily motor-powered. However, I'm not sure how we come up with a definition that would specifically cover this distinction.

I'm therefore putting out a poll. If you want to allow miles by certain bikes with electric power but not others, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you'd use? If you want to allow bicycles that are primarily motor-powered to count, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you would use to distinguish them from motorcycles (assuming you don't want motorcycle miles to count for Freezing Saddles)?

Note that this question deals only with which miles count, not with who is permitted to enter Freezing Saddles. Someone who wants to be on the Bunch O' Slackers, for example, can ride anything he or she wants (including a car), because the miles don't count anyway. And if we rule out motor-powered vehicles, someone who primarily rides a motor-powered bicycle could still participate, but only the miles on non-motor-powered vehicles would count.

dasgeh
12-10-2015, 04:41 PM
So you want us to vote on the concept vaguely, without defining the distinction?

Just let people ride. This is a non-game with non-rules. And even if crazy ELF dude has registered, IIRC all the forum-ati agreed that it was great to have him out on the roads, though most objected to him on the trails.

Amalitza
12-10-2015, 04:47 PM
I'm therefore putting out a poll. If you want to allow miles by certain bikes with electric power but not others, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you'd use? If you want to allow bicycles that are primarily motor-powered to count, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you would use to distinguish them from motorcycles (assuming you don't want motorcycle miles to count for Freezing Saddles)?



I'd like to suggest getting some input into this part *before* putting out a poll. Some people (not me) (dasgeh, hint) could provide a more accurate definition of different types of e-bikes and how they can be ridden and you could use those definitions (and explanations of them for those of us less knowledgeable) so we can have a more informed idea of what we're voting on.

We still have 3 weeks before January 1. There's no rush to do a poll today.

jrenaut
12-10-2015, 04:49 PM
Rule out any ELF miles without even getting into the motor. The thing is mostly enclosed. How can you properly freeze in an enclosed vehicle?

Is there a clear distinction between primarily human powered with motor assist, and primarily motor powered with pedaling option? For me it's about the spirit - I want to include dasgeh, who uses e-assist because she has a giant bike full of children in a super-hilly part of VA. I do NOT want to include someone who does 80 miles a day without breaking a sweat because a motor is doing most of the work. I worry that it is tough to both make the distinction and to enforce it.

ShawnoftheDread
12-10-2015, 04:53 PM
Can't we just be arbitrary and mean, and boot out anyone we don't want in our game? (Asking for a friend.)

sjclaeys
12-10-2015, 05:01 PM
As I suggested earlier, those using any motor assisted bikes or other vehicles can join the Bunch O' Slackers. We then avoid trying to divine differences between these vehicles, avoid any unfair comparisons with those riding solely human-powered bikes, and allow those with motor assisted bikes to still join in the non-game fun.

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 05:04 PM
I'd like to suggest getting some input into this part *before* putting out a poll. Some people (not me) (dasgeh, hint) could provide a more accurate definition of different types of e-bikes and how they can be ridden and you could use those definitions (and explanations of them for those of us less knowledgeable) so we can have a more informed idea of what we're voting on.

We still have 3 weeks before January 1. There's no rush to do a poll today.
Well, dasgeh among others can comment on the poll. But I'm reluctant just to ask certain individuals. There may be others in a position to comment on the distinction (and I've specifically asked for such comments).

If a majority believe we shouldn't allow any miles with a vehicle with any e-assist, the definition becomes irrelevant. The same is true if a majority believe all miles should count. If e-assist vehicles are okay but not miles on motor powered vehicles, I'll go with a consensus of people who actually ride the things as to how to define them.

I should also point out that the poll is scheduled to be up until December 24 (which is the same day registration closes). So it's not like we're rushing people. But if people are required to report miles on the registration form, they need to know what miles count. And for some, the definition may determine whether they participate on a team (or indeed at all).

Amalitza
12-10-2015, 05:06 PM
The thing is mostly enclosed. How can you properly freeze in an enclosed vehicle?


Speaking as someone who has owned and driven a car with a broken heater through a Midwestern winter, let me assure you that you can in fact properly freeze in an enclosed vehicle.


It doesn't help that the inside of the windshield tends to frost over unless you keep a window partly open to let the dry winter air blow over it...

Tim Kelley
12-10-2015, 05:06 PM
Just pointing out that with e-bikes there is a big range--a 50lbs bike with a 550 watt motor is a very different beast than a 100lbs bike with a 175 watt motor. Zoom zoom!

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 05:12 PM
So you want us to vote on the concept vaguely, without defining the distinction?

Just let people ride. This is a non-game with non-rules. And even if crazy ELF dude has registered, IIRC all the forum-ati agreed that it was great to have him out on the roads, though most objected to him on the trails.

I would welcome guidance from you (and others who are familiar with e-bikes) on a distinction. But we did get comments to the effect that Freezing Saddles should count only exclusively human-powered miles. I disagree with that position. However, given that this is a leaderless organization, I'm not sure how to work out this issue without asking the question specifically. The best I could do was state my own position, and point out that totally ruling out e-assist would be a bad thing for "one of our most beloved members" (by which I meant you, of course, though I avoided naming either the ELF person who registered or you). This seems at least to be clear enough that so far, at least, the majority have voted in favor of allowing e-assist.

And as stated above, I'm specifically looking for comments on whether there are any limits--and if so, how to define them. I would assume we're not counting motorcycle miles. (Although if the consensus is that we are, I'll go with that.) But with no definition at all, I don't know how we rule that out.

And I assume that many people on the forum would agree that it is great to have someone on a motorcycle or in a Prius out on the roads (to the extent this replaces a less fuel-efficient alternative). But this does not necessarily mean they would agree that miles on such vehicles should count for purposes of this contest.


I worry that it is tough to both make the distinction and to enforce it.

As to making the decision, that's why I've requested input. As to enforcing it, we already require people to exclude their own miles on a trainer. But we don't have the capacity to enforce that, either. If we decide to exclude certain vehicles, we could handle that the same way.


Just pointing out that with e-bikes there is a big range--a 50lbs bike with a 550 watt motor is a very different beast than a 100lbs bike with a 175 watt motor. Zoom zoom!

I agree. I'd like to include that 100 lb. bike with the 175 watt motor at a minimum. One of the reasons I put this out there was to get comments on where we draw the line (if in fact we want to draw one at all).


Can't we just be arbitrary and mean, and boot out anyone we don't want in our game? (Asking for a friend.)

Well, anyone who is banned from this forum can't participate, because we've clearly stated that this forum is to be the primary method of communication. So that rules out one of the people we don't want in our game. But unless we are going to have a separate poll on whom to boot out (for heaven's said, NO!!!!), I figure we should keep this discussion to counting miles, not booting people out.

83(b)
12-10-2015, 05:32 PM
To help guide the discussion, a picture of my ebike is below. It weighs maybe a bit over 60-70lbs, I'd guess is usually loaded to around 100lbs plus a portly rider, and has a 500Watt motor that can propel it to just over 25mph (I typically have it governed to 20mph). It uses a throttle, since I like to use the assist to gain speed from the frequent stops on my commute, and then once at speed is usually kept bopping along by principally human power.

I'm perfectly happy bowing out of FS this year if folks prefer a ... uh, purist approach to things. And if folks decide that there's some specific bright-line limit that works, I don't think enforcement needs to be a concern. Those of us on the wrong side of the line would be cool with, and abide by, the consensus of the group (I say, having apparently crowned myself spokesperson for everyone who owns a kitted-out eBike). And besides, we've always allowed self-reported data to be counted through Strava without needing PwC to come do spot-audits.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8733/16349469064_0d5af3a926_z.jpg

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 05:46 PM
To help guide the discussion, a picture of my ebike is below. It weighs maybe a bit over 60-70lbs, I'd guess is usually loaded to around 100lbs plus a portly rider, and has a 500Watt motor that can propel it to just over 25mph (I typically have it governed to 20mph). It uses a throttle, since I like to use the assist to gain speed from the frequent stops on my commute, and then once at speed is usually kept bopping along by principally human power.

I'm perfectly happy bowing out of FS this year if folks prefer a ... uh, purist approach to things. And if folks decide that there's some specific bright-line limit that works, I don't think enforcement needs to be a concern. Those of us on the wrong side of the line would be cool with, and abide by, the consensus of the group (I say, having apparently crowned myself spokesperson for everyone who owns a kitted-out eBike). And besides, we've always allowed self-reported data to be counted through Strava without needing PwC to come do spot-audits.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8733/16349469064_0d5af3a926_z.jpg

I am 100% in agreement that we don't need an enforcement mechanism. We've been on the honor system for trainer miles for as long as the contest has existed, and I think we can handle any decision we make in the same manner.

And I'm in the anti-purist camp. What you're riding looks like a bicycle to me! But as with the other area of "I know it when I see it," it might be helpful to have at least some guidelines. I would really like to hear from anyone who rides a bike with e-assist on where an appropriate place to draw the line is.

Also, remember that there is nothing to prevent you from joining the Bunch 'O Slackers, whose miles won't count, even if your miles on that vehicle don't count. There is no reason to give up the social aspects even if you're not participating in the competitive ones.

Crickey7
12-10-2015, 06:09 PM
What you're riding looks like a bicycle to me!

I'm so purist, I think anything with fenders doesn't look like a bicycle.

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 06:10 PM
I'm so purist, I think anything with fenders doesn't look like a bicycle.

This could end up being a very small competition!

dkel
12-10-2015, 08:00 PM
Rule out any ELF miles without even getting into the motor. The thing is mostly enclosed. How can you properly freeze in an enclosed vehicle?

This! Bundling against the icy blast of the polar vortex is what this thing is all about! I say the E.L.F. is O.U.T.

I'm ambivalent about the e-bike question. I think the part of me that is in opposition is experiencing mostly a sour grapes kind of feeling, which doesn't cut it for actually voting against it in the poll (and there's no "I'm ambivalent" option, so I haven't voted). I expect I'll get an e-bike when I'm old and decrepit (or really need it for whatever reason); that is a far better option than not riding anymore. On the other hand, I will say I imagine riding into a headwind probably feels very different on an e-bike: ootching up the little dial to compensate is not an option non-e-bicyclists have!

rcannon100
12-10-2015, 08:10 PM
Can't we just be arbitrary and mean, and boot out anyone we don't want in our game? (Asking for a friend.)

I always did.

dkel
12-10-2015, 08:15 PM
I always did.

...until he got booted out, apparently. ;)

Rod Smith
12-10-2015, 08:32 PM
Did you ride that in previous Freezing Saddles? Why do you need to carry so much stuff? Moots YBB!

peterw_diy
12-10-2015, 08:50 PM
Maybe we should use a race of champions to settle this. sjclaeys rides the Bike Arlington bullet with 120 pounds of dead weight in the cargo box to simulate kids (note: some of us have logged BAFS miles with more live with than that). Tim Kelley rides sjclaeys' bike. If sjclaeys wins, then ebikes are banned from engaging their motors for BAFS miles. Hold the race as part of Megabeth's HP 100 ride. Sound good?

dasgeh
12-10-2015, 09:22 PM
My recollection (without going into the archive, but I'm sure someone will and will correct me if I'm wrong) is that we went around and around about this a year or two ago. We landed on a rough rule of thumb that ebikes that meet the definition in the federal statute are fine. And that it's just freezing saddles, so we're not really going to be strict about it, and bikes like the Specialized Turbo would be fine. It's all self policed anyway. And the National Bike Challenge allows ebikes.

I also thought we had a quick exchange on this in the planning thread, where someone asked, someone else said ebikes were fine if you're haulin' kids, I said a brief version of the above, and rcannon said something snarky. I thought that put the issue to bed; same rules as before: ebikes are cool.

And then ELF guy showed up. Meh. If he wants to join our community, why not welcome him? Maybe we can bring him around on riding on the trails. Maybe not. Maybe he'll buy us all a round at the happy hour.

Mostly, I'm frustrated that this is open again. <As a side note, I'm frustrated that the ebike debate so often comes down to "legitimate" uses. Those of us using ebikes to tote kids or because we're pregnant (last year, not this year) are all good. But those of us who use ebikes because we're late for work, don't want to bother with changing, our other bike is in the shop, we're working back up to the full mileage on a regular bike, are pariahs. Who cares? We're all out there and we're not in cars.>

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 09:28 PM
Did you ride that in previous Freezing Saddles? Why do you need to carry so much stuff? Moots YBB!
Last year, there was no rule about ebikes. This year, the issue was raised.

Admittedly, you're someone who carries a lot of stuff without e-assist. But there are some who carry the weight on the bikes, rather than on trailers. And some are not thin, male, and/or under 80.

As for why, I am totally refusing to have a vote on how many children dasgeh can have!

dasgeh
12-10-2015, 09:40 PM
Last year, there was no rule about ebikes. This year, the issue was raised.


ebikes have been explicitly allowed for at least the last 2 years.

Vicegrip
12-10-2015, 09:51 PM
I clicked the wrong button and voted for no e-bikes when I intended to vote for them. (darn hanging chads)

The way I look at it. My pedaling is via a meat based motor which produces heat as a byproduct of chemical combustion. This excess heat is then used to* keep the extremities warm. Less peddling = more freezing.

*Well perhaps "try and keep" would be better said.

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 09:57 PM
I clicked the wrong button and voted for no e-bikes when I intended to vote for them. (darn hanging chads)

The way I look at it. My pedaling is via a meat based motor which produces heat as a byproduct of chemical combustion. This excess heat is then used to* keep the extremities warm. Less peddling = more freezing.

*Well perhaps "try and keep" would be better said.
I will keep in mind that we should switch your vote when we look at the final results.

sjclaeys
12-10-2015, 09:57 PM
Maybe we should use a race of champions to settle this. sjclaeys rides the Bike Arlington bullet with 120 pounds of dead weight in the cargo box to simulate kids (note: some of us have logged BAFS miles with more live with than that). Tim Kelley rides sjclaeys' bike. If sjclaeys wins, then ebikes are banned from engaging their motors for BAFS miles. Hold the race as part of Megabeth's HP 100 ride. Sound good?

When you are ready to actually respond to a suggestion offered in good will, let me know.

dkel
12-10-2015, 10:04 PM
Admittedly, you're someone who carries a lot of stuff without e-assist. But there are some who carry the weight on the bikes, rather than on trailers.

Aside from issues of balance, I don't see how this makes a single bit of difference.

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 10:06 PM
Aside from issues of balance, I don't see how this makes a single bit of difference.
I've had a kid on a bike and a kid in a trailer. The trailer was barely noticeable. The kid on the bike took much more effort. I don't know the physics, but I have had the experience.

hozn
12-10-2015, 10:08 PM
My personal opinion (not playing, so doesn't count) is that ebikes are fine in the overall competition, but wouldn't count toward any of the individual leaderboards/metrics. Basically, take Strava's approach and exclude from leaderboards. (Incidentally, since Strava does exclude ebikes from leaderboards, they will automatically be excluded from any pointless prizes that involve Strava segments -- if I understand the implementation correctly.)

I would say no to the ELF, though. Freezing Saddles is not about driving to work in an enclosed electric vehicle. Even if it might be too chilly to keep the travel mug of coffee warm all the way it work. What hardship.

Ironically, I don't see that solarbikecar donkey on the rainy days, though maybe he was working a different schedule the past few such days.

dkel
12-10-2015, 10:10 PM
I've had a kid on a bike and a kid in a trailer. The trailer was barely noticeable. The kid on the bike took much more effort. I don't know the physics, but I have had the experience.

F=MA. Now you know the physics.

jrenaut
12-10-2015, 10:14 PM
I've had a kid on a bike and a kid in a trailer. The trailer was barely noticeable. The kid on the bike took much more effort. I don't know the physics, but I have had the experience.

I did a trailer for a while until the kids outgrew it, then went longtail. The trailer is much better at red lights because the two wheels support the lateral weight. The longtail is better moving because you're just pulling weight, not dealing with weight plus flex in the plastic connector and extra rolling resistance from two extra tires. The longtail is tougher on your upper body, too - your shoulders get a workout keeping it upright - but overall, I find the longtail easier. YMMV.

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 10:15 PM
F=MA. Now you know the physics.
All right, when the kid is on the bike, you're in effect lifting the kid every time you come back from leaning the bike one direction or the other (e.g. to turn). That's unnecessary with a trailer. Is that enough science for you?

BTC_DC
12-10-2015, 10:18 PM
Perhaps just have a restriction against "semi-recumbent electric trike with a plastic body resembling a velomobile that has a built in solar panel" with "Adjustable Comfort Seat with Back Rest" and may not exceed the width of a MUP lane?

Not sure how that would work on the registration form...

Brünø Moore
12-10-2015, 10:22 PM
I love pedal assist bikes. Anyone who tells you they're not "real" bikes needs to take a joy ride on a Faraday. Anyone who thinks it's cheating to use pedal assist needs to borrow an EdgeRunner 9e or 10e and three kids and get schlepping up to Marist Hall at the top of CUA's campus. Anyone who thinks a 13-pound carbon Wunderfahrrad or custom-made titanium blingbike with electronic shifting, Garmin, and/or power meter is more sporting or honest than a fully loaded Spicy Curry or retrofitted bakfiets should probably have their head examined after they pull it out of the dark, stinky place they've been keeping it.

dkel
12-10-2015, 10:30 PM
All right, when the kid is on the bike, you're in effect lifting the kid every time you come back from leaning the bike one direction or the other (e.g. to turn). That's unnecessary with a trailer. Is that enough science for you?

As I said, "aside from issues of balance." I will point out, though, that in cornering, there is negligible—if any—effort in ”leaning the bike," as the leaning offsets the angular momentum, otherwise you'd fall over instead of balancing.

I've ridden my commute with a backpack and with panniers. Same route, same junk to carry. I felt like carrying the weight on my body was more work than carrying it on the bike. Others feel the opposite (we've had that discussion in the backpack thread). I'm not fooling myself that one required a substantially greater effort, though, as the overall mass was the same. Also, maneuverability issues with a large trailer like Rod's are significant, and the increased drag of having more rolling resistance from additional wheels can be taken into account.

83(b)
12-10-2015, 10:46 PM
Did you ride that in previous Freezing Saddles? Why do you need to carry so much stuff? Moots YBB!

I've actually ridden it for the last two years. In fact, two years ago we rode to and from the final happy hour together (I was the dude in the suit)! In terms of the stuff, there's actually quite a bit of empty space on a daily basis, which leaves plenty of spare room for cargo when it's called for. The back left pannier holds the motor's controller, most of the wiring, and bike repair kit. The trunk bag holds the battery. The right pannier holds my rain gear and some grocery bags. The saddle bag is on a Nitto quick release and is basically a briefcase. It's got my lunch, work papers, iPad, keys, etc. The front porteur bag is usually empty for the commute, but gets used frequently to haul groceries, take-out, other shopping and mail/packages. The whole thing was my attempt to press a frame I love and can't bear to part with into service as a cargo bike. It works well enough (https://www.flickr.com/photos/83b/albums/72157651232859798). And while it's got the cool YBB suspension design, it's actually the Litespeed version from 1996--when I spent all my savings from working in a shop on it.

In terms of the larger question of where to draw the line on ebikes (if, in fact, a line is gonna get drawn), I have competing thoughts. If we're going to draw lines based on equipment, my bike is probably a reasonable place to draw it (whether I'm on the "in" or "out" side being up to folk's judgment). I think that my bike is more bike-like than vespa-like--an opinion I've formed with no conflicts of interest, I assure you!--but if ridden by a hooligan it's performance is well outside the capabilities of most cyclists. And if ridden by someone who isn't fair minded, it could be used to quickly rack up significant mileage for little effort (despite the fact it would be interminably boring and easier to just fake Strava entries).

In favor of allowing me/my bike:

It's built on a bicycle frame using bicycle parts;
It's light enough that I carry it up and down my 10 front steps in & out of the house every day without rupturing a disk;
It leaves me fully exposed to the elements;
Edit to add: It rides on bike infrastructure without conflict, and cars certainly view me with the same disdain they have for other bikes;
It meets the federal standards for ebikes (when the governor is active);
It doesn't really encourage logging extra mileage. I'm going to make the same trips using that bike whether participating or not, since it's my primary transportation;
It's far less scooter/motorcycle-like than this other guy in DC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V97hkyK2EKw) (not necessarily relevant, but I also scrupulously obey traffic laws).
My stats (http://freezingsaddles.com/people/552932) for both of the past two years were below middling. My only real contribution to a team's points was due to my consistency riding almost every day, which is why I had fun participating. The competition kept me from ever bagging and taking the metro or from not going in to the office on snowy "work from home" days. If I go for a weekend recreational ride, I'm going to take a "real" bike;
I don't ride noticeably differently from other cyclists. Most people are surprised when I point out that it's an ebike. I use the throttle to accelerate from a stop more quickly and easily than most cyclists, but once the momentum is established I tend to drop the throttle and continue on leg power. Unless I'm in a hurry for some specific reason, I'm not out blowing past "real" cyclists like they're standing still. My commute is typically the best part of my day, why would I rush it!?!
I enjoy participating in the camaraderie and discussions around the competition. The past two years I learned some great tips on riding in adverse weather from participating. For example, on the forum's recommendation I picked up a set of moosemitts and am looking forward to avoiding numb fingers and borderline-frostbite this year.



Facts cutting against allowing me/my bike:

If so inclined, I could ride substantially differently from other cyclists; the bike is controlled by a throttle, and is powerful enough to be "driven" from stopped to full speed with no pedal input;
With the governor disabled, it can exceed federal ebike standards (the vendor's site (http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html) suggests it can produce 1,200 Watts at peak load and can sustain a cruising speed of just over 27.5mph);
To the extent people want to judge reasons for using an ebike, mine are lacking. I'm able bodied and don't have that far to go to work -- ~5miles. I just choose to ride in my work clothes (a full suit & tie) because it's what works best for me and because I frequently have to use my bike to jump between meetings around town and/or to haul cargo;
Bikes with similar motor kits and capabilities (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V97hkyK2EKw) resemble, to me at least, scooters more than they do bikes (jump to minute 4 of the video).


Having typed through my thoughts in a meandering way, for which I apologize, I can totally see a good argument for excluding me based on the potential of my equipment, but still think it would be reasonable to let me participate based on how I actually use it. Perhaps something like allowing ebikes to participate with an admonishment: "Thou Shalt Ride Like Cyclists!" or something of that sort? Lumping us onto a single team, such as the Slackers, might also work? To help folks decide I'll also try to be at Swings for the next two Friday Coffee Clubs, instead of hitting my snooze button like usual, so folks can see and ride it if they want.

peterw_diy
12-10-2015, 11:03 PM
When you are ready to actually respond to a suggestion offered in good will, let me know.
I take it you didn't like my attempt at a joke.

Am I only allowed to "respond" to your suggestion with humorless prose?

Ok, I'll try. From what I can tell, over half the points scored are scored on road bikes weighing less than 25 pounds. And most with ebikes here are not only riding fewer miles, but doing it with a lot of sometimes squiggly cargo. With the current demographics there's no need to banish ebikes to the slacker pit. This isn't boxing or wrestling with pre-match weigh-ins. Even if we cared about fairness (shouldn't Rod outscore Eric considering his trailer weight?), there's no need to treat ebike riders here as if they're using EPO.

Rod Smith
12-10-2015, 11:30 PM
All right, when the kid is on the bike, you're in effect lifting the kid every time you come back from leaning the bike one direction or the other (e.g. to turn). That's unnecessary with a trailer. Is that enough science for you?

Cargo bikes are faster than bike/trailer but may have lower capacity.

cvcalhoun
12-10-2015, 11:34 PM
From what I can tell, over half the points scored are scored on road bikes weighing less than 25 pounds... Even if we cared about fairness (shouldn't Rod outscore Eric considering his trailer weight?), there's no need to treat ebike riders here as if they're using EPO.

And here I was thinking that since I ride a 64-lb. bike, I should get credit for at least twice the miles of someone riding a 25-lb. bike!

(No, that was not serious, in case it's not obvious.)

Rod Smith
12-10-2015, 11:40 PM
I've actually ridden it for the last two years. In fact, two years ago we rode to and from the final happy hour together (I was the dude in the suit)!
I know who you are Ryan but I wasn't sure you used that bike for the comp.

SolarBikeCar
12-10-2015, 11:41 PM
The survey, the discussion.... Just too funny. Hilarious. I can't stop laughing and take this vote seriously.

BTC_DC
12-10-2015, 11:47 PM
The survey, the discussion.... Just too funny. Hilarious. I can't stop laughing and take this vote seriously.

On the same page then with respect to your justifications for taking the LEF on multi-use paths.

Rod Smith
12-10-2015, 11:52 PM
The survey, the discussion.... Just too funny. Hilarious. I can't stop laughing and take this vote seriously.

How many miles will you ride this winter? Planning an epic for January 1st? Give it your best shot. I will crush you.

hozn
12-11-2015, 12:03 AM
The survey, the discussion.... Just too funny. Hilarious. I can't stop laughing and take this vote seriously.
Think of it as our way of thanking you for all the humor you provided us in the ELF thread.

... And the humor you provided my family when I mentioned that apparently someone that drives an electric bike-car wants to play Freezing Saddles. My wife's response was a little misogynistic, so I won't repeat it. But we did laugh, so thank you for that.

Steve O
12-11-2015, 12:36 AM
Also, remember that there is nothing to prevent you from joining the Bunch 'O Slackers,
Only veterans may be slackers. That decision has already been made.

cvcalhoun
12-11-2015, 12:45 AM
Sorry, I was assuming 83(b) was a veteran.
Only veterans may be slackers. That decision has already been made.

Steve O
12-11-2015, 12:55 AM
I was going to suggest that e-bikes would count for #kidical and actual cargo miles, when carrying a load that is more than just commuting stuff + return miles if it's a 1-way trip, but then I read 83(b)'s long discourse and am not so sure.

I do find the idea of an enclosed vehicle to go against the whole spirit of Freezing Saddles, however. If one is going to be hit by the snowplow detritus, it should be full force.


http://youtu.be/mJKzW2JRGos

Steve O
12-11-2015, 12:57 AM
Sorry, I was assuming 83(b) was a veteran.

Right. I took your comment to be more general in nature, but obviously misinterpreted. Oops.

consularrider
12-11-2015, 02:00 AM
I was going to suggest that e-bikes would count for #kidical and actual cargo miles, when carrying a load that is more than just commuting stuff + return miles if it's a 1-way trip, but then I read 83(b)'s long discourse and am not so sure.

I do find the idea of an enclosed vehicle to go against the whole spirit of Freezing Saddles, however. If one is going to be hit by the snowplow detritus, it should be full force.


http://youtu.be/mJKzW2JRGos

I think the ELF should be required to be fitted out with a snow removal attachment to balance out it's power benefits and provide clearer trails for the rest of the BAFS riders.

ian74
12-11-2015, 04:57 AM
The survey, the discussion.... Just too funny. Hilarious. I can't stop laughing and take this vote seriously.

It's one thing if you legitimately want to participate, but if you're just trolling or doing this for the LOLs it's kind of sad and disappointing.

sjclaeys
12-11-2015, 06:44 AM
I take it you didn't like my attempt at a joke.

Am I only allowed to "respond" to your suggestion with humorless prose?

Ok, I'll try. From what I can tell, over half the points scored are scored on road bikes weighing less than 25 pounds. And most with ebikes here are not only riding fewer miles, but doing it with a lot of sometimes squiggly cargo. With the current demographics there's no need to banish ebikes to the slacker pit. This isn't boxing or wrestling with pre-match weigh-ins. Even if we cared about fairness (shouldn't Rod outscore Eric considering his trailer weight?), there's no need to treat ebike riders here as if they're using EPO.

The combined weight of my steel commuter bike and panniers is about 50 lbs. When I am effortlessly passed by an ebike while pushing against the wind on the MVT or going up a hill on the Custis, then, yeah, I think that there is a fairness issue, and don't think that there's such an issue when I'm passed by someone on a light road bike because they are at least doing it under their own power.

DismalScientist
12-11-2015, 06:44 AM
At some point deep down Freezing Saddles is an athletic competition and therefore motor assist should not be allowed. This positition has nothing to do with whether an e-bike is a good transportation alternative.

Is it fair that people ride different weight bikes? Well, who said the world is fair? Some people have more time to devote to this stupidity than others. (Maybe if your bike is too heavy, you are--Rod excepted--carrying too much crap.)

Personally, I think crabon bikes should eliminated since they shatter too easily in the cold. And BarMitts? They're just for pansies.:rolleyes:

Raymo853
12-11-2015, 07:39 AM
<sarcasm> I say let the ELF rider in, will give us the opportunity to save all his tracks as to hold as evidence against him. </sarcasm>

Vicegrip
12-11-2015, 07:47 AM
The survey, the discussion.... Just too funny. Hilarious. I can't stop laughing and take this vote seriously.That is ok. We are all having a good laugh too! Having a good laugh is one of the key goals of F.S.
I can understand that you would find this odd or confusing and therefore think it is funny. We are all having a fun time here and you are welcome to read along even if you are likely totally clueless to the community commuting cycling competition content and characters involved. Trust me, plenty of people are laughing and shaking their heads at your online and on trail activity so we now have something in common.

Being in on a good joke and being the butt of one is not the same thing.

vvill
12-11-2015, 08:37 AM
I think we should just allow all e-bike entries and then we can discriminate later on based on the stats that come up. I don't think anyone has issues with riders such as 83(b) and dasgeh. Pretty sure there are others who have e-assist bikes as well (Rob O, for example).

That said, I think I would either put ELF guy in his own team or just exclude ELFs from the game. It's a stretch to say that it's even in the same class of vehicle and I think a perfectly reasonable and enforceable distinction. After all, the general consensus was that it shouldn't even be on the trails.

LeprosyStudyGroup
12-11-2015, 08:45 AM
It seems like the people who ride electric have a lot more time to write lots of long posts. Kinda jealous now.

Sunyata
12-11-2015, 08:59 AM
Not that my opinion matters much, but I am going to state it anyway.

With regards to e-assist bikes: allow them. They have been allowed in the past, and I seriously doubt anyone in the top 20% of riders was on an e-bike, so did it really make that much difference? Besides, the spirit of the game is to go out and ride your bicycle in the freezing cold with friends. If someone on an e-bike wants to join in on the fun, let them. The more, the merrier. This is supposed to be fun (in a very cold and silly way). :)

With regards to the ELF: it is not an e-assist bicycle. It is a fully enclosed electric vehicle with pedal assist. It should not be allowed to participate on those merits alone. In addition, I honestly doubt that the ELF driver will be a constructive addition to our game. His forum antics have only caused dissension and could be construed as trolling. Will he come out for group rides (is that even safe)? Will he come to happy hours? Or is he just in it to drum up some publicity and controversy? Again, this is supposed to be fun. If the addition of this person to our game will reduce the fun, then...

That is my two cents.

Amalitza
12-11-2015, 09:10 AM
I think the determination should be the ride, not the bike. If I understand correctly, throttle bikes like 83(b)'s can be ridden basically as a bike under pedal power, or basically as a scooter, under motor power. If he rides it like a bike, pedaling all the time that a person on a non-e-assist bike would pedal (unless we require everyone to get a fixie, we all stop pedaling to brake and maybe coast downhill), then the ride counts. If he's tired or lazy one day and rides to work mostly under throttle power w/o really bothering to pedal then he #nobafs that ride and it doesn't count. We trust people not to cheat, just like we trust people not to cheat on manual entries and trainer rides and not putting their bikes on top of their cars and driving around the neighborhood with the heater at full blast. I haven't answered the poll, because the poll is based on the capability of the bike, not the characteristics of the ride, so I'm not sure how to answer it.

hozn
12-11-2015, 09:10 AM
At some point deep down Freezing Saddles is an athletic competition and therefore motor assist should not be allowed. This positition has nothing to do with whether an e-bike is a good transportation alternative.

I think this sentiment hits the nail on the head. As rcannon100 has pointed out in the past, FS was never intended to be a cycling advocacy tool. It is a competition, and one that is fundamentally athletic.

mstone
12-11-2015, 09:16 AM
I did a trailer for a while until the kids outgrew it, then went longtail. The trailer is much better at red lights because the two wheels support the lateral weight. The longtail is better moving because you're just pulling weight, not dealing with weight plus flex in the plastic connector and extra rolling resistance from two extra tires. The longtail is tougher on your upper body, too - your shoulders get a workout keeping it upright - but overall, I find the longtail easier. YMMV.

I think it's easier if you stun the children first so they don't move around so much. An electronic device of some sort will serve the purpose.

Tim Kelley
12-11-2015, 09:25 AM
As rcannon100 has pointed out in the past, FS was never intended to be a cycling advocacy tool.

I don't disagree at all.

This isn't pertinent to the larger conversation, but I want to point out that FS is grassroots bike culture, which in a way is cycling advocacy. Especially since it gets people riding bikes during the winter when they likely might not have in the past. It warms my heart to see everyone bickering back and forth over on the forum, which was created 6 years ago as advocacy tool.

lordofthemark
12-11-2015, 09:45 AM
I am not sure about the ebike thing (allow only for people who have actually shlepped their kids in them? Only when the kids are actually in them? I dunno - I do think FS is both an athletic competition, and also an advocacy tool, and that requires case by case, maybe arbitrary decisions by the community)

But I am damn sure no vehicle with built in all around protection against the elements should be involved. I mean even bar mitts is stretching it a bit, but they at least only provide limited protection.

mstone
12-11-2015, 09:51 AM
I mean even bar mitts is stretching it a bit, but they at least only provide limited protection.

Really, if you're not riding naked it's a cop-out.

SolarBikeCar
12-11-2015, 10:00 AM
Obviously most of you have never seen an ELF or you wouldn't make silly comments claiming it is enclosed. You might get away with claiming it is partially enclosed much like a carport is partially enclosed. Still a carport is hardly a heated garage.

If this is serious athletic competition will there be drug testing? If not, how do you prevent doping. If competitors get a Starbucks enroute that should disqualify, right? :)

I figured if my presence generates such visceral contempt it would be a good motivator. It got Rod all pumped up for his epic. The prizes are "pointless" so I couldn't care less, but putting rubber on the [snowy] road while you all bicker about who's in and who's out is priceless.

-enjoy

bobco85
12-11-2015, 10:04 AM
I think it's easier if you stun the children first so they don't move around so much. An electronic device of some sort will serve the purpose.
For some reason, the first thing that came to mind was this situation:

You are riding an electric cargo bike/bakfiets/bike with trailer with a child squirming/screaming/etc. which is messing up your balance and/or annoying you
You push a special button
A miniature cattle prod extends out of the back of the bike and shocks the child into a calmer state
Robotic voice then states, "Child neutralized"
The remainder of your ride is pleasant :D


On a more thread-related note, I'm cool with electric assist as long as the cyclist is doing some work to pedal and power the bike. To echo other posters, the point of Freezing Saddles is to get out there and continue biking during the toughest months of the year in this area.

dkel
12-11-2015, 10:07 AM
I figured if my presence generates such visceral contempt it would be a good motivator. It got Rod all pumped up for his epic.

Rod was already pumped up for his epic. The thought of crushing you while doing it just sweetened the deal.

peterw_diy
12-11-2015, 10:14 AM
When I am effortlessly passed by an ebike while pushing against the wind on the MVT or going up a hill on the Custis, then, yeah, I think that there is a fairness issue

Gotcha. Personally my experience is that electric cargo bike interactions far outnumber electric commuter bike interactions, and I've not yet seen one of those sort speedy cheater road bikes. But that makes sense.

lordofthemark
12-11-2015, 10:15 AM
If this is serious athletic competition

It is a fun athletic competition. An athletic competition for people who would never enter a serious bike competition (as well as a few who would) It ain't the Tour de France, or even the Air Force Cycling Classic, but it sure is about testing and stretching what we can do physically.

jabberwocky
12-11-2015, 10:41 AM
I propose we allow them and come up with a massive overly complicated formula to determine how their miles should be modified. My proposal:

(150/motor power in watts)*([cargo weight in pounds+50]/75)

So someone with a 250 watt motor hauling around 100 pounds of kids would get:
(150/250)*((100+50)/75)=1.2 points per mile.

Someone riding their 750 watt ebike with no cargo would get:
(150/750)*((0+50)/75)=0.133 points per mile.

Note: tongue in cheek

Tania
12-11-2015, 10:46 AM
It is a fun athletic competition. An athletic competition for people who would never enter a serious bike competition (as well as a few who would) It ain't the Tour de France, or even the Air Force Cycling Classic, but it sure is about testing and stretching what we can do physically.


Pretty sure solarbikedude was being facetious when he asked if it was a serious competition...

worktheweb
12-11-2015, 11:08 AM
I'm all for people riding bikes as much as possible.

The challenge as I see it is that there are points awarded based on mileage and when you've got an electric assist or can run in moped mode that mileage is pretty much meaningless. The competition is a lot of fun, and part of that is the playful rivalries that happen as people push themselves to ride more in conditions that send most people inside heated conveyances.

While I don't want to turn people away, allowing the miles/points to be "easy" fundamentally changes the dynamic. When you're pedaling, you really have to think about how you dress -- too much and you sweat and get super cold, too little you get super cold anyway. If you can just switch on a motor, you can dress so warmly that you might as well be in a car. If you've got a fairing that keeps the rain off you that is another benefit that makes the miles for that day easy.

Perhaps an asterisk team would solve the issue. Not a part of the general population leaderboards but off on their own able to compare on a level playing field. Still part of the community and part of the fun. My favorite part of FS last year was all the great friends I made. I look forward to meeting even more of you this year, regardless of what powers your wheels. I don't think we should be stopping the camaraderie that makes the competition so wonderful, but we also don't want to make the competition meaningless. Not an easy line to walk.

lordofthemark
12-11-2015, 11:12 AM
Pretty sure solarbikedude was being facetious when he asked if it was a serious competition...

I am pretty sure he was trolling, but my preferred response to such things (when I am not up for the proper response of ignoring) is to respond directly and as calmly as possible.

83(b)
12-11-2015, 12:15 PM
Perhaps those of us on ebikes (particularly those using them because they're slackers, not because they have special mini-me cargo to transport) who are taking part just to enjoy the fun and camaraderie could make an offering at the alter of athletic achievement. Do a little something to recognize those who excel at the athletic competition aspect of the thing.

I was thinking maybe special Pointless Prizes for the top riders who take the most KOMs over the course of the competition (measured by KOMs after the annual reset)? They could be awarded with the finest ales and pastries in all the land, in the hopes of upsetting their strict diet and training regimens and bringing them back into contact with the mere mortals.

hozn
12-11-2015, 12:28 PM
I think this underscores the need to have a category of "bystanders" (aka "slackers team") that is generally open for the community (pointless prizes, photos, etc.) -- not exclusive to previous contenders -- but not contributing to leaderboards.

I realize the Slackers question has already been asked and under, though. Maybe revisit for 2017.

dasgeh
12-11-2015, 12:58 PM
Ugh. This is not an athletic competition. I've always thought of it as a competition to build camaraderie and community around people who bike. But it's not an athletic competition.

And as to fairness? Huh? Take my commute. It takes me about 20 minutes on my unloaded e-assist, 25 minutes on my road bike. It would take my husband (a bit more fit than our beloved TK) about 20 minutes on the unloaded eassist, 15 minutes on a road bike. Before I carried and gave birth to three kids, the commute would have taken me about 20 minutes on my road bike. Which one of these is "fair"? "Unfair"?

Or temperature: at 35 F on my road bike, I wear heavy tights, one shirt layer + coat; on the eassist, I wear long johns + trousers, 2 shirt lawyers + coat; my husband, on a road bike wears leg warmers, base layer + jersey + jacket; husband on eassist wears jeans, one shirt + coat. Is one of these fair? Unfair?

I put moose mitts on the bike in the 30s. Husband waits until the 20s. Many of us don't have moose mitts. Fair? Unfair?

Seriously. This kind of talk about "athletic competition" and "fairness" is very un-freezing saddles.

Amalitza
12-11-2015, 01:19 PM
It warms my heart to see everyone bickering...

<<digs down deep in the memory banks to bring out best teenage-girl eye-roll>>

whatevs, dad. (grownups: so weird.)




:)

ginacico
12-11-2015, 02:18 PM
Seriously. This kind of talk about "athletic competition" and "fairness" is very un-freezing saddles.

Mmm hmm. The more rules imposed, the more the needle shifts to the serious end of the spectrum. I really wanted to believe the marketing emphasizing the opposite.

If SolarBikeGuy only signed up to troll or sabotage the games, it will become evident; otherwise, give him the benefit of the doubt and let him play. Disperse those with e-assists, moose mitts, or other random perceived "advantages" among the teams and move on.

Attempts at exclusion are arbitrary, and unpredictability is fun. Having an ELF in the mix might just make FS sillier than ever.

mstone
12-11-2015, 02:41 PM
A miniature cattle prod extends out of the back of the bike and shocks the child into a calmer state

I was thinking more like a 3DS. I guess I need to add a disclaimer?

rcannon100
12-11-2015, 02:43 PM
I organized the first FS. It was organized as an athletic competition in cold weather. ebikes were excluded with one exception.

Tania
12-11-2015, 02:48 PM
I thought the mention of moose mitts was a joke? Is there serious talk of excluding people based on their choice of winter gear? (Which is about the stupidest thing I've read on this forum...) Am I going to be excluded for wearing Lake boots too? Is this about riding our bikes to seeing who's the most hard core?

lordofthemark
12-11-2015, 02:50 PM
Mmm hmm. The more rules imposed, the more the needle shifts to the serious end of the spectrum. I really wanted to believe the marketing emphasizing the opposite.

If SolarBikeGuy only signed up to troll or sabotage the games, it will become evident; otherwise, give him the benefit of the doubt and let him play. Disperse those with e-assists, moose mitts, or other random perceived "advantages" among the teams and move on.

Attempts at exclusion are arbitrary, and unpredictability is fun. Having an ELF in the mix might just make FS sillier than ever.

Just to clarify - I don't think anyone at all suggested that he be excluded or not be allowed to participate - just that his miles on the ELF would not count. But whatever, if folks think a rule against counting ELF miles detracts from the event, so be it.

At some point in a game, fairness does matter though - even a light hearted, social game can be ruined by being egregiously unbalanced. Of course in FS we have all different levels of experience and fitness, types of bikes, levels of winter gear ownership, and home and work locations with different levels of bike friendliness. So it can't be a serious competition, even if anyone wanted that. I think the ELF presents a greater degree of unbalance, which might detract from the fun, but we can always just see if that happens and adjust next year.

lordofthemark
12-11-2015, 02:52 PM
I thought the mention of moose mitts was a joke? Is there serious talk of excluding people based on their choice of winter gear? (Which is about the stupidest thing I've read on this forum...) Am I going to be excluded for wearing Lake boots too? Is this about riding our bikes to seeing who's the most hard core?


That was me, and yeah, it was a joke. :( "Don't quit your day job" they said.

ShawnoftheDread
12-11-2015, 02:54 PM
I think I'll buy a Hummer and spend my time in traffic reading ArlNow comments.

bobco85
12-11-2015, 02:58 PM
I was thinking more like a 3DS. I guess I need to add a disclaimer?
Eh, they're both devices that use electricity to entertain ;)

ginacico
12-11-2015, 03:04 PM
I thought the mention of moose mitts was a joke?

It was a joke. dasgeh was trying to make a point about arbitrary rules, and that was my (perhaps unsuccessful) attempt to add support.

dasgeh
12-11-2015, 03:08 PM
On a happier note, everyone, including ebikes and even ELF-Troll, is welcome to join us on Kidical Mass Arlington's HOLIDAY LIGHTS AND 60+F TEMPERATURES RIDE. This Saturday. 4:45pm Key Elementary - we'll ride to Westover. Longer and hillier than usual, so not geared towards first-time kiddos.

It's a last minute thing (planned late after looking at the forecast and having another obligation cancelled) so please help spread the word.

http://kidicalmassarl.blogspot.com/2015/12/holiday-lights-featuring-60-degrees-in.html
https://www.facebook.com/kidicalmassarlington/?ref=bookmarks
https://twitter.com/KidicalMassARL/status/675080479259889664

dasgeh
12-11-2015, 03:14 PM
I organized the first FS. It was organized as an athletic competition in cold weather. ebikes were excluded with one exception.

I'm pretty sure your memory is going, good sir. I didn't even participate in the first BAFS. In the years I have competed, there have been multiple folks on ebikes. IIRC, you also would repeatedly state that BAFS is a noncompetition with no organizer.

lordofthemark
12-11-2015, 03:35 PM
I would live to disavow credit for raising the issue of Bar Mitts - in fact it was Dismal. His joke was better, however.

Let me just say that for me last FS was about stretching what I was capable of physically (I had scarcely ridden in winter before, certainly never regularly or in the range of conditions I did) It was not about doing what I would have been doing anyway, except with socializing and silly prizes added. Whether that makes it an "athletic competition" or not, is a bit Talmudic even for me. I was able to get into it even knowing that most (?) folks had more winter gear, better bikes, had ridden in winter much more than I had before, etc - the wide range of participants and their mix among the teams enabled me to express my competitive spirit anyway.

If say, one third of the participants were riding ELFs? I don't know. We are not close to that level of ELF adoption and may never be (I will reaffirm that I would be delighted if lots of people would switch from cars to ELFs, just is I would if more people drove EVs) , so maybe it doesn't matter.

cvcalhoun
12-11-2015, 03:47 PM
Perhaps an asterisk team would solve the issue. Not a part of the general population leaderboards but off on their own able to compare on a level playing field. Still part of the community and part of the fun. My favorite part of FS last year was all the great friends I made. I look forward to meeting even more of you this year, regardless of what powers your wheels. I don't think we should be stopping the camaraderie that makes the competition so wonderful, but we also don't want to make the competition meaningless. Not an easy line to walk.

I just want to clarify that even if miles on ebikes are disallowed, no one will be barred from Freezing Saddles for using an ebike. Someone who uses one some of the time, but another type of bike at other times, could still join a team, but with only miles from other bikes counting. Or if someone is a veteran, s/he could join the Bunch O' Slackers.

I am still in favor of counting ebike miles. But even if I'm overruled, it is clear that it is ebike miles, not ebike riders, that are disallowed.

sjclaeys
12-11-2015, 03:58 PM
The argument for fully including ebikes (not just in the bunch o' slackers, which I think would be fine), seems to be: 1) FS is not an athletic competition and the points are meaningless, so 2) the miles and time riding an ebike should be included in determining the number of points that an ebike rider accumulates versus others not riding ebikes. If the points and the competition are so meaningless, why is it so important to include points from riding an ebike (or other motor-assisted vehicle)?

dasgeh
12-11-2015, 04:00 PM
I just want to clarify that even if miles on ebikes are disallowed, no one will be barred from Freezing Saddles for using an ebike. Someone who uses one some of the time, but another type of bike at other times, could still join a team, but with only miles from other bikes counting. Or if someone is a veteran, s/he could join the Bunch O' Slackers.

I am still in favor of counting ebike miles. But even if I'm overruled, it is clear that it is ebike miles, not ebike riders, that are disallowed.

But this is just semantics. Many people mainly ride one bike. If miles from that bike aren't allowed, why bother joining? Other people (like me) choose their bikes based on needs, not based on an arbitrary rule in this arbitrary game.

I, for one, just won't participate if ebike miles aren't counted, because I have enough demands juggling which bike I pic (is the bike working, will it work in these conditions, will it carry what I need it to carry).

dasgeh
12-11-2015, 04:05 PM
The argument for fully including ebikes (not just in the bunch o' slackers, which I think would be fine), seems to be: 1) FS is not an athletic competition and the points are meaningless, so 2) the miles and time riding an ebike should be included in determining the number of points that an ebike rider accumulates versus others not riding ebikes. If the points and the competition are so meaningless, why is it so important to include points from riding an ebike (or other motor-assisted vehicle)?

No. The argument in favor of allowing ebikes to play is that this is a silly game, the point of which is to build community among people who ride bikes; if we start excluding people based on athletic ability, we're limiting that community. In fact, there's no "we" anymore, because I am not part of this "only ride non-ebikes" group.

S. Arlington Observer
12-11-2015, 04:23 PM
No. The argument in favor of allowing ebikes to play is that this is a silly game, the point of which is to build community among people who ride bikes; if we start excluding people based on athletic ability, we're limiting that community. In fact, there's no "we" anymore, because I am not part of this "only ride non-ebikes" group.

That is a pretty compelling argument. Is there a way to change one's vote?

cvcalhoun
12-11-2015, 04:25 PM
That is a pretty compelling argument. Is there a way to change one's vote?
I'm keeping track. So far, there are two votes that need to be changed, which means we're at 26 in favor of ebikes, 27 against. And I think my position on the issue is clear, and is even stronger if dasgeh will not participate if ebike miles are not allowed.

Alcova cyclist
12-11-2015, 04:34 PM
While I agree that more rules generally equals less fun, IMO the ELF is something altogether different. I'd suggest a vehicle that:
- can go 20 mph without pedaling
- is touted by its manufacturer for its "ABS composite... that protects you from the elements"
- has a windshield, roof, and partial side-panels (doors optional)
- is called a "BikeCar" and a "mini-car" by its owner (as in "[cyclists] don't want their status as top dog on the bike path to be demoted by the influx of mini-cars" from solarbikecar.com)
may not be in keeping with a winter bicycling game that revels in feats of suffering, strength, perseverance, and courage in the face of the worst old man winter can throw at you.

Other "regular" e-assist bikes suffer the elements just as much, and maybe more, than those on regular bikes, which I always took as the real heart of the game... When the subject of BAFS comes up with non-crazy people (i.e. no one reading this thread), they always ask about the weather I rode in, not how many miles or how fast I rode.

sjclaeys
12-11-2015, 04:35 PM
I think that there is some confusion between FS being an athletic event, which it is not, and being a physical event, which it intrinsically is. Indeed, it is the physical act of riding a bicycle that is at the center of this community.

lordofthemark
12-11-2015, 04:49 PM
While I agree that more rules generally equals less fun, IMO the ELF is something altogether different. I'd suggest a vehicle that:
- can go 20 mph without pedaling
- is touted by its manufacturer for its "ABS composite... that protects you from the elements"
- has a windshield, roof, and partial side-panels (doors optional)
- is called a "BikeCar" and a "mini-car" by its owner (as in "[cyclists] don't want their status as top dog on the bike path to be demoted by the influx of mini-cars" from solarbikecar.com)
may not be in keeping with a winter bicycling game that revels in feats of suffering, strength, perseverance, and courage in the face of the worst old man winter can throw at you.

Other "regular" e-assist bikes suffer the elements just as much, and maybe more, than those on regular bikes, which I always took as the real heart of the game... When the subject of BAFS comes up with non-crazy people (i.e. no one reading this thread), they always ask about the weather I rode in, not how many miles or how fast I rode.

This is what I meant to say.

hozn
12-11-2015, 06:38 PM
I think that there is some confusion between FS being an athletic event, which it is not, and being a physical event, which it intrinsically is. Indeed, it is the physical act of riding a bicycle that is at the center of this community.
This is a good, if subtle, distinction.

But I think it is obvious that a competition where winning means riding the farthest/most distance is about physical ability. If the point of the competition were simply to make friends, the competition would be structured differently.

Competitions need rules.

I think the problem here is that FS is becoming too democratic. The way you solve this is you just reject solarbikedonkey's registration and you allow dasgeh and 83b because no one really cares whether their bikes have batteries. There doesn't have to be a reason.

If there has to be a consistent rule created, though, drawing the line at e-bikes for a physical competition seems reasonable.

dkel
12-11-2015, 06:51 PM
Why don't we just change the name to Freezing Saddles Winter Riding Challenge? Then it's not a competition at all. Teams challenge themselves to do their collective best. Individuals challenge themselves to do their personal best. Prizes are awarded to those who excel—even pointlessly, not to those who win. We are not challenging ourselves to freeze, rather we are challenging ourselves not to freeze, and thus we can stop arguing about how people decide to meet the challenge: with what ability level and what technology.

All this may be essentially another semantic nuance, but if we all focus on this being a challenge, then we are all motivated to achieve and not outdo, and we can all celebrate that.

(Huh. I think I just convinced myself to change my vote, on the e-bikes and the ELF. Didn't see that coming.)

dkel
12-11-2015, 06:53 PM
If the point of the competition were simply to make fiends, the competition would be structured differently.

Oh, this competition makes "fiends" all right. Have you read this thread!?

hozn
12-11-2015, 07:04 PM
Oh, this competition makes "fiends" all right. Have you read this thread!?
Touche. You are on top of the spell check and grammar these days!

hozn
12-11-2015, 07:13 PM
Why don't we just change the name to Freezing Saddles Winter Riding Challenge? Then it's not a competition at all. Teams challenge themselves to do their collective best. Individuals challenge themselves to do their personal best.

Sure, go for it. If we stop keeping score, it certainly simplifies my life (well, my role here, anyway).

That is definitely not how this started, but if the participants want to do something different, seems like that could happen.

dkel
12-11-2015, 07:18 PM
Sure, go for it. If we stop keeping score, it certainly simplifies my life (well, my role here, anyway).

That is definitely not how this started, but if the participants want to do something different, seems like that could happen.

I didn't say we should stop keeping score. It's like National Bike Challenge; they keep score. Like I said, it's somewhat of a semantic point, but perhaps it will keep everyone from feeling slighted one way or another, and shift the focus to achievement instead of besting one another.

hozn
12-11-2015, 07:22 PM
I didn't say we should stop keeping score. It's like National Bike Challenge; they keep score. Like I said, it's somewhat of a semantic point, but perhaps it will keep everyone from feeling slighted one way or another, and shift the focus to achievement instead of besting one another.
So keep score but the scores don't matter and it isn't a competition? I don't see the point to the competition. It is basically everyone on the slacker team?

dkel
12-11-2015, 07:34 PM
So keep score but the scores don't matter and it isn't a competition? I don't see the point to the competition. It is basically everyone on the slacker team?

Yes and no. Everyone who wants to challenge themselves to do the riding-all-winter thing would be on a team of like-minded individuals, striving to get the most out of their winter riding at whatever level they can contribute, without feeling like it's a win-or-lose scenario. Slackers would still be viable, assuming they would be interested in playing along without striving. The scores are a metric to measure—and even compare—achievement, but not for keeping score in a game, per se (like I said, it's a semantic point).

Maybe this is all stupid. I'm just trying to find a way that we might change the mindset a little, so there isn't so much "I'm competing, so your miles don't count," and "I'm not competing, but I quit if my miles don't count."

DismalScientist
12-11-2015, 07:58 PM
I'm beginning to miss the crosswalk discussions of old.

dkel
12-11-2015, 08:02 PM
I'm beginning to miss the crosswalk discussions of old.

How so? This thread provides the perfect opportunity for you to be a curmudgeon. ;)

Arlingtonrider
12-11-2015, 08:23 PM
Never mind.

Vicegrip
12-11-2015, 09:00 PM
How about we not worry about the little stuff and do things that make winter riding a bit less cold and gray? Let's make teams that are about even with some folks that ride lots, some folks that ride steady and some folks that want to have a reason to ride more. To win you do what you are already doing but just a bit more. Oh wait, we have that already.


All the chatting and conversation is fine, it does nothing to diminish the true fun and laughs from this silly winter game. Kudos to those that got it started and those that are keeping it going.

Steve O
12-12-2015, 12:47 AM
ebike - short for electric bicycle
bicycle - created from bi, meaning 2, and cycle from the Greek kyklos, meaning wheel

Repeat: bi - meaning 2

How about a rule that requires your "bicycle" to have 2 (+/- 1) wheels. That will allow unicycles and those weird, 3-wheeled recumbent thingies.

Or maybe even 3-wheelers shouldn't count. After all, part of the adventure of Freezing Saddles is the whole trying-to-stay-upright challenge presented by treacherous trail conditions. I doubt the ELF has ever gone done on the Lyon Village switchback because of wet leaves. Or has to even slow down on the Trollheim, other than to navigate the corner.

So my proposal is your "bicycle" must have 2 wheels or fewer to count for miles in BAFS. dasgeh, you're in. ELFman, you're out.

SolarBikeCar
12-12-2015, 08:35 AM
ebike - short for electric bicycle
bicycle - created from bi, meaning 2, and cycle from the Greek kyklos, meaning wheel

Repeat: bi - meaning 2

How about a rule that requires your "bicycle" to have 2 (+/- 1) wheels. That will allow unicycles and those weird, 3-wheeled recumbent thingies.

Or maybe even 3-wheelers shouldn't count. After all, part of the adventure of Freezing Saddles is the whole trying-to-stay-upright challenge presented by inclement trail conditions. I doubt the ELF has ever gone done on the Lyon Village switchback because of wet leaves. Or has to even slow down on the Trollheim, other than to navigate the corner.

So my proposal is your "bicycle" must have 2 wheels or fewer to count for miles in BAFS. dasgeh, you're in. ELFman, you're out.

The efforts people will go to feed bigotry. ... Oh snap, Steve, the ELF has 3 wheels so your attempt to justify targeted exclusion fails. So sad. Really sad.
What a great first hand illustration of what woman and African Americans experienced trying to play golf at a country club.

hozn
12-12-2015, 09:06 AM
The efforts people will go to feed bigotry. ... Oh snap, Steve, the ELF has 3 wheels so your attempt to justify targeted exclusion fails. So sad. Really sad.
What a great first hand illustration of what woman and African Americans experienced trying to play golf at a country club.
This is a profoundly apt comparison. The deep injustice that some privileged white IT middle manager can't drive his electric car down the bike path because it is more convenient than driving on the road. Oh wait, but he does it anyway because surely rules don't apply to him. Now he is bitter because he isn't welcome to motor his enclosed vehicle in a winter riding competition. Yeah, I can see how that oppression rivals the systematic denial of basic human rights based on race, sex, religion.

Man up, dude.

And maybe a moderator can remove solarbikecar, who is now officially just a troll.

ShawnoftheDread
12-12-2015, 10:30 AM
I think we're heading toward my solution, offered roughly three dozen pages ago. You people really should listen to me more.

Yeah, I said you people. Crazy cyclists.

vern
12-12-2015, 10:54 AM
Hozn's "Now just a troll" assessment is rather generous in regard to timing.

Steve O
12-12-2015, 10:55 PM
bicycle - created from bi, meaning 2, and cycle from the Greek kyklos, meaning wheel

So my proposal is your "bicycle" must have 2 wheels or fewer to count for miles in BAFS. dasgeh, you're in. ELFman, you're out.

Oh snap, Steve, the ELF has 3 wheels so your attempt to justify targeted exclusion fails.

Huh?

peterw_diy
12-13-2015, 12:42 AM
Huh?

The Ignore List is your friend.

DismalScientist
12-13-2015, 07:04 AM
Mopeds, motorcycles and Segways have two wheels. That doesn't make them bicycles.

I wouldn't object to tricycles or old, rusty 1940's pedal cars being used in Freezing Saddles.

dplasters
12-13-2015, 05:18 PM
The USGA has a new thing where if you play a round of golf solo, you can't post it for handicapping purposes. Its a bit like freezing saddles. If people are going to sandbag and cheat, they're going to sandbag and cheat. I'll be doing several centuries this year. I'll just go ahead and manually enter them. I may also just keep my phone on and my car in 1st gear....

Don't forget about the great rcannon avg speed of 50mph kerfuffle of 2015!

It's an honor system.



¯\_(ツ)_/¯

jnva
12-14-2015, 10:50 AM
I totally get why the elf guy should ride on the streets, which is why I started riding my ebike on the road until I was almost killed last year after slipping on ice. I don't have an answer to this and haven't read through the entire thread, but has anyone suggested a team for the electric vehicles? I might join that team...

cvcalhoun
12-14-2015, 11:03 AM
I totally get why the elf guy should ride on the streets, which is why I started riding my ebike on the road until I was almost killed last year after slipping on ice. I don't have an answer to this and haven't read through the entire thread, but has anyone suggested a team for the electric vehicles? I might join that team...
I'm not sure what a team for electric vehicles would accomplish. We normally try to keep teams as evenly matched as possible, which would suggest, if anything, trying to divide them equally among the teams.

kcb203
12-14-2015, 11:09 AM
My concern about the ELF is more practical. I haven't seen it out in the dark yet. Maybe it's just my good luck, or maybe he doesn't ride in the dark. But the danger of that thing barreling down the trail is magnified in the dark when I can't see how big it is or whether it's in my lane. It reminds me of the old Mr. Toad's Wild Ride at Disneyworld where there are train sounds and a huge train headlight barreling down at you as you ride through in a little car thingy. Only when you're about to get hit do you realize the headlight has no train attached and is just following a track on the ceiling.

Look at about 1:40 into this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu6OThkq14

cvcalhoun
12-14-2015, 11:16 AM
My concern about the ELF is more practical. I haven't seen it out in the dark yet. Maybe it's just my good luck, or maybe he doesn't ride in the dark. But the danger of that thing barreling down the trail is magnified in the dark when I can't see how big it is or whether it's in my lane. It reminds me of the old Mr. Toad's Wild Ride at Disneyworld where there are train sounds and a huge train headlight barreling down at you as you ride through in a little car thingy. Only when you're about to get hit do you realize the headlight has no train attached and is just following a track on the ceiling.

Look at about 1:40 into this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu6OThkq14
Well, I think the issue of whether an Elf should be allowed on bike lanes was rather thoroughly covered in a different thread. Can we please keep this one to what kinds of e-assist bicycles, if any, should be allowed in Freezing Saddles? Given that barring such vehicles entirely would exclude several valued members from the competition, I really want to make sure this gets proper attention.

S. Arlington Observer
12-14-2015, 01:42 PM
One thing that should exclude the Elf and not be reliant on a wheel count would be to say that the vehicle must not have an enclosed cabin. It should essentially expose the rider to the elements. I know that some regular bicycles have what appears to be a windshield but no roof. I would leave it to others to refine the definitions. I had originally voted for no assistance but now believe that e-bikes should be allowed so long as the rider is actually out in the freezing weather and subject to an unexpected rain shower or snow flurry

dasgeh
12-14-2015, 02:48 PM
It seems like there's consensus around the idea of not letting the Elf-guy play. You can say it's because he's a troll. You can say it's because he's enclosed. Or on 3 wheels*. Or too wide. Or whatever.

Can we just say he's out and leave it at that? Stick with last year's rules, which are also the NBC rules -- ebike rides and ebike rides.

*As long as we don't have a hard and fast rule that says >2 wheels are out, because we would exclude people hauling trailers or trail-a-bikes or kid-hauling Trikes.

Steve O
12-14-2015, 04:12 PM
It seems like there's consensus around the idea of not letting the Elf-guy play. You can say it's because he's a troll. You can say it's because he's enclosed. Or on 3 wheels*. Or too wide. Or whatever.

Hey! This seems like a good contest. Best, or cleverest, or most sardonic idea for why we exclude him wins a pointless prize.
Who wants to sponsor this one?

Steve O
12-14-2015, 04:16 PM
...so long as the rider is actually out in the freezing weather and subject to an unexpected rain shower or snow flurry

Or.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJKzW2JRGos)

dasgeh
12-14-2015, 05:48 PM
One thing that should exclude the Elf and not be reliant on a wheel count would be to say that the vehicle must not have an enclosed cabin. It should essentially expose the rider to the elements. I know that some regular bicycles have what appears to be a windshield but no roof. I would leave it to others to refine the definitions. I had originally voted for no assistance but now believe that e-bikes should be allowed so long as the rider is actually out in the freezing weather and subject to an unexpected rain shower or snow flurry

Note that we count anyone's rides wherever they happen to be. I believe we've had rides logged in Florida, Hawaii, South America...

S. Arlington Observer
12-14-2015, 05:51 PM
Hey! This seems like a good contest. Best, or cleverest, or most sardonic idea for why we exclude him wins a pointless prize.
Who wants to sponsor this one?

There isn't actually any reason why every possible situation has to be addressed (yet). If, as seems evident, there is near unanimity that Elf type vehicles are not appropriate, simply say that "Elfs and essentially similar enclosed vehicles (if there are other brands) are not permitted".

Over time the world between bicycles and assisted or motorized cycles (even greenly powered, such pure solar) will continue to blur. Perhaps a group can use the after season to meet, debate, drink, discuss, drink, etc. how else to draw lines in the future. For the moment the main consensus is with Elf type vehicles. One can stop there. The "rules" need not make sense in a legal sense. It is a voluntary exercise. If the group does not want Elfs then no Elfs. Figuring out everything in between sounds like a great warm season activity.

cvcalhoun
12-14-2015, 07:10 PM
Note that we count anyone's rides wherever they happen to be. I believe we've had rides logged in Florida, Hawaii, South America...

Yes, and we count rides in the DC area even if the weather does not include snow flurries, showers, or freezing rain. I think the idea is that we have to be exposed to the elements, whatever they may be in our chosen venue, not that the elements have to be unfavorable.

timo96
12-14-2015, 07:45 PM
Or.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJKzW2JRGos)

hmmm, good idea. ELF guy can play if he attaches a plow to the front of his car. Make himself useful, imo / jmo.
10252

sjclaeys
12-14-2015, 08:39 PM
There was the proposal of ebike rides being included with the Bunch o' Slackers. The idea is that this allows ebike riders to participate and to address questions about whether e-assisted rides should count to the days/miles count. I do not recall seeing any responses to this proposal. if I missed them, I apologize. Thanks

cvcalhoun
12-14-2015, 08:44 PM
There was the proposal of ebike rides being included with the Bunch o' Slackers. The idea is that this allows ebike riders to participate and to address questions about whether e-assisted rides should count to the days/miles count. I do not recall seeing any responses to this proposal. if I missed them, I apologize. Thanks
No matter what we decide here, ebike riders could be in the Bunch O' Slackers, at least if they are veterans. The only discussion here is what miles count, not who can play. And since miles by slackers don't count regardless of what they are riding, we wouldn't be worried about ebike riders being on the Slackers.

americancyclo
12-15-2015, 08:09 AM
No matter what we decide here
this thread is on page 14. If it hasn't already been decided, it won't be.

Raymo853
12-15-2015, 09:08 AM
this thread is on page 14. If it hasn't already been decided, it won't be.

This should have never been a thread or a poll, it should have been a decision without any consideration of whom types the loudest. We all know on this issue, plus many more, there can never be a consensus or even an accommodation.

Steve O
12-15-2015, 09:39 AM
This should have never been a thread or a poll, it should have been a decision without any consideration of whom types the loudest. We all know on this issue, plus many more, there can never be a consensus or even an accommodation.

Agreed. Freezing Saddles is not a democracy nor a dictatorship, nor really any easily definable structure. It probably most closely resembles organizing a game of freeze tag on the grade-school playground.

In the end, decision-making is made by those who have stepped up to volunteer and make the decisions. It is good that cvc and sunyata and amalitza, etc. listen to the rest of us, but since they have volunteered to take care of registration and member management, the rest of us have essentially deferred to them to do the best they can. I like that cvc has taken these polls and opened these threads for discussion; she didn't have to.

Amalitza
12-15-2015, 12:57 PM
woah woah woah there SteveO. Dude. I'm pretty sure I didn't volunteer to make any actual decisions this year. I volunteered to document the decisions other people make in a centralized and easily accessible location.

:) wishy-washy and decision free, here.

consularrider
12-15-2015, 01:30 PM
woah woah woah there SteveO. Dude. I'm pretty sure I didn't volunteer to make any actual decisions this year. I volunteered to document the decisions other people make in a centralized and easily accessible location.

:) wishy-washy and decision free, here.

That's why I did't volunteer, when I retired I gave up the responsibility of making decisions that affect other people's lives. Of course living in Kyiv doesn't help either. :cool:

cvcalhoun
12-15-2015, 04:25 PM
This should have never been a thread or a poll, it should have been a decision without any consideration of whom types the loudest. We all know on this issue, plus many more, there can never be a consensus or even an accommodation.


Agreed. Freezing Saddles is not a democracy nor a dictatorship, nor really any easily definable structure. It probably most closely resembles organizing a game of freeze tag on the grade-school playground.

In the end, decision-making is made by those who have stepped up to volunteer and make the decisions. It is good that cvc and sunyata and amalitza, etc. listen to the rest of us, but since they have volunteered to take care of registration and member management, the rest of us have essentially deferred to them to do the best they can. I like that cvc has taken these polls and opened these threads for discussion; she didn't have to.


woah woah woah there SteveO. Dude. I'm pretty sure I didn't volunteer to make any actual decisions this year. I volunteered to document the decisions other people make in a centralized and easily accessible location.

:) wishy-washy and decision free, here.

I started this poll to try to see if there was a consensus on the issue. However, I don't intend to go strictly by the numbers here. Unless things change markedly between now and December 24, barring disagreement by my co-organizers, I'm inclined to call this in favor of allowing ebikes but not ELFs (Elves?), on the following basis:


I don't think we should be changing previous rules, in a way that would disqualify beloved veterans, without a solid consensus rather than a simple majority.

The totals currently shown above don't reflect the fact that three people have changed their votes from a complete ban to allowing ebikes but not ELFs, so the vote is in fact almost even.

Everyone who has wanted to change a vote has done so in the direction of allowing ebikes, and has changed based on reading the discussion. This suggests to me that people who think and read more are likely in the pro-ebike camp, while some of the antis may just have voted on the poll without really reading.

Those who ride ebikes are more directly affected by the decision than the rest of us are, so their votes should be given a bit more weight.


Amalitza has already indicated her intention to stay out of all decision-making. I'll consult with Sunyata and Hozn, who have been the other organizers, and then just let Amalitza know what decisions have been made.

sjclaeys
12-15-2015, 06:56 PM
Looks like this thread deserves its own pointless prize! :rolleyes:

KWL
12-15-2015, 07:00 PM
Looks like this thread deserves its own pointless prize! :rolleyes:A scale model of an ELF?

cvcalhoun
12-15-2015, 07:22 PM
A scale model of an ELF?

Driven by a troll?

KWL
12-15-2015, 08:27 PM
http://i2.wp.com/cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2013/10/woodentoyelf.jpg

sjclaeys
12-15-2015, 09:22 PM
http://i2.wp.com/cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2013/10/woodentoyelf.jpg

With one of these:

10257

dkel
12-15-2015, 10:03 PM
Pretty sure that's the combination I've seen out on the trail.

ewilliams0305
12-15-2015, 10:18 PM
As I suggested earlier, those using any motor assisted bikes or other vehicles can join the Bunch O' Slackers. We then avoid trying to divine differences between these vehicles, avoid any unfair comparisons with those riding solely human-powered bikes, and allow those with motor assisted bikes to still join in the non-game fun.

I could also be kinda fun to have a motorized team. We will still Crush them so its all good. Then we can all dance around and praise our selves for being even more bad ass than ever before. After all they will go broke putting in all that gas to keep.up with our miles

ewilliams0305
12-15-2015, 11:04 PM
Lets just make things simple, does it have a saddle? Is it freezing? If your A$$ is frozen than your well qualified to play. I doubt an elf has a saddle??? Oh shoot, I just caused more problems, any recumbent bikes here:)

Either way #oneLessCar

P.S.
Let the record state that my bike last year weighed apx 50lbs for the duration of the contest

cvcalhoun
12-15-2015, 11:40 PM
Lets just make things simple, does it have a saddle? Is it freezing? If your A$$ is frozen than your well qualified to play. I doubt an elf has a saddle??? Oh shoot, I just caused more problems, any recumbent bikes here:)

Either way #oneLessCar

P.S.
Let the record state that my bike last year weighed apx 50lbs for the duration of the contest

Mine weighed 64 lbs., and did not have a motor. My belief that e-assist bikes should be allowed is not related to my having a bike that is in any way easy to ride. ;)

ewilliams0305
12-16-2015, 06:40 AM
Mine weighed 64 lbs., and did not have a motor. My belief that e-assist bikes should be allowed is not related to my having a bike that is in any way easy to ride. ;)

While I kind of agree I have to say, I'm with rod, bring on the motors, ill still crush you! No bike is "easy" to ride when its 17deg out either. And for arguments sake, we all ride the bikes we choose to ride, the heavy ones tend to be more comfortable so there that. I'm really neither for or against it, I just want to keep the participation up. This is a slippery slope that leads to nothing but competitor's with blond hair and blue eyes

jrenaut
12-16-2015, 07:34 AM
I think we are reaching what passes for consensus. If you pedal it and it doesn't take gas, it's cool. If someone abuses an electric motor to win things in the contest, we can take care of that at the final happy hour. Let's move on to the next argum... I mean calm discussion of the rules.

sethpo
12-17-2015, 02:27 PM
Now that this is settled I can go buy this ELF and totally CRUSH #BAFS2016. Eat my photon exhaust, suckas.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dcusedicyclemarketplace/permalink/1720144014882853/

cvcalhoun
12-17-2015, 02:32 PM
Now that this is settled I can go buy this ELF and totally CRUSH #BAFS2016. Eat me photon exhaust, suckas.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dcusedicyclemarketplace/permalink/1720144014882853/

ELF is definitely out!

cvcalhoun
12-21-2015, 01:26 AM
I started this poll to try to see if there was a consensus on the issue. However, I don't intend to go strictly by the numbers here. Unless things change markedly between now and December 24, barring disagreement by my co-organizers, I'm inclined to call this in favor of allowing ebikes but not ELFs (Elves?), on the following basis:


I don't think we should be changing previous rules, in a way that would disqualify beloved veterans, without a solid consensus rather than a simple majority.

The totals currently shown above don't reflect the fact that three people have changed their votes from a complete ban to allowing ebikes but not ELFs, so the vote is in fact almost even.

Everyone who has wanted to change a vote has done so in the direction of allowing ebikes, and has changed based on reading the discussion. This suggests to me that people who think and read more are likely in the pro-ebike camp, while some of the antis may just have voted on the poll without really reading.

Those who ride ebikes are more directly affected by the decision than the rest of us are, so their votes should be given a bit more weight.

Amalitza has already indicated her intention to stay out of all decision-making. I'll consult with Sunyata and Hozn, who have been the other organizers, and then just let Amalitza know what decisions have been made.


Although the poll hasn't formally closed, I think that after 11 days and 15 pages, it's time to call this one. While the organizers decided to act contrary to the (slight) majority in this instance for the reasons specified above, we certainly tried to take the overall discussion and poll into account in coming up with this year's rules.1/ So, with the concurrence of hozn and Sunyata, and the abstention of Amalitza, here's the verdict (which I will pass on to Amalitza for the sticky, although she need not include the footnotes): 2/


The ELF is not allowed. 3/
Miles in or on any vehicle which is incapable of being human-powered will not be counted. 4/
Miles in or on any vehicle, other than an ELF, which is capable of being human-powered (with or without e-assist) will be counted. 5/

1/ Let the record show that I abided by the results of the other two polls I did (on whether to let slackers use the regular registration form, and whether to have local teams), even though they were not what I would have preferred. If we'd had a real consensus here, I would have followed it.
2/ Sorry, I'm a lawyer, I can't help speaking in footnotes.
3/ There may or may not be a pointless prize for the best, or cleverest, or most sardonic idea for why we exclude either the vehicle or its driver (http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?9655-eBikes-and-electric-powered-vehicles-%28including-the-Elf%29&p=129820#post129820), but the decision is final.
4/ This would include cars (even Priuses! even ones driven in the Midwest without heat!), motorcycles, mopeds, Segways, hoverboards, teleport, etc. While we applaud any vehicle that saves energy and produces less in the way of toxic emissions than a normal car, not all of them are suitable for Freezing Saddles.
5/ This is true regardless of the number of wheels, weight of the vehicle, power of the motor, or medical or other condition of the rider. Upright bikes (with or without training wheels), recumbent bikes, tricycles, or your kid's foot-powered scooter are all allowed. Unicycles are positively encouraged, if only for the amusement value.

ShawnoftheDread
12-21-2015, 10:21 AM
Wait, I can sleaze ride a skateboard? This makes planning and packing for travel much easier.

jopamora
12-21-2015, 01:21 PM
It has to be an e-assist board

cvcalhoun
12-21-2015, 07:14 PM
Wait, I can sleaze ride a skateboard? This makes planning and packing for travel much easier.

Yes, you can. If anyone doesn't like that rule, s/he can contact next year's troika, err, organizers!


It has to be an e-assist board

Reading comprehension FAIL! Of course, being a lawyer, I expect a lot of that. ;)

PotomacCyclist
12-21-2015, 08:16 PM
So Amtrak miles don't count? I'm crushed.

(Actually, I haven't even signed up, so disregard my posts. But I may be an occasional spectator and look at the leaderboard occasionally. That will be the extent of my participation. I'm just not a cold-weather person. Or a Strava person. Maybe someday before I retire.)

sjclaeys
12-21-2015, 09:35 PM
Wait, I can sleaze ride a skateboard? This makes planning and packing for travel much easier.

I think that an e-assist skateboard would work as well.

cvcalhoun
12-21-2015, 10:57 PM
I think that an e-assist skateboard would work as well.

Yes, skateboards with or without e-assist are permitted. Although if I get many more questions regarding interpretation, I may have to assemble a beit din. And nobody wants that!

Brünø Moore
12-22-2015, 12:27 AM
Hangon, hangon, hangon—does this mean that other Strava activities (ice skate, windsurf, roller ski, yoga, etc) can be counted? I think there's a can of worms that I may just have to exploit at some point...

cvcalhoun
12-22-2015, 12:32 AM
Hangon, hangon, hangon—does this mean that other Strava activities (ice skate, windsurf, roller ski, yoga, etc) can be counted? I think there's a can of worms that I may just have to exploit at some point...

Sigh! Yoga's definitely out, because you need to have traveled to have anything recorded. (Remember, trainer miles don't count, even if Strava counts them.) Windsurfing is out, because you're not human powering it. For everything else, you must use your best judgment as to whether something is a "vehicle," and is within the spirit of this contest. Attempts to exploit loopholes will be punished with public humiliation at the final happy hour.

UnknownCyclist
12-22-2015, 07:33 AM
You should have seen it when I put my toddler in an e-assist stroller. She was scared s***less. It was priceless...

Steve O
12-22-2015, 08:47 AM
Shouldn't whatever conveyance is used have a "saddle?" That can freeze?

dplasters
12-22-2015, 09:46 AM
Shouldn't whatever conveyance is used have a "saddle?" That can freeze?

I shall tackle this with the slight of hand of the idiom "back in the saddle (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/back+in+the+saddle)". See the saddle that is referred to is not required to be physical. What is meant by the concept of a freezing saddle is that one does not want to be put in a position to have to be "back in the saddle" come spring time. Indeed, by freezing on this less physical and more metaphysical saddle through winter, you have a warm and perhaps slightly damp theoretical saddle to carry you through spring and into summer.

The saddle is a metaphor for the human struggle of soft flesh vs harsh winter, Steve. Everyone knows this. It is also up for debate at this time how often the metaphysical saddle will actually be frozen this winter.



I'm inspired by the academic paper on the crabon and masculinity. Next week:
Why Dura-ace is actually popular only because it keeps you going mentally, like Duracell and how capitalism is causing the communal spirit of cycling to collapse around itself in a reverse Schumpetarian crumbling walls due to mega corporation marketing schemes.

cvcalhoun
12-22-2015, 11:49 AM
You should have seen it when I put my toddler in an e-assist stroller. She was scared s***less. It was priceless...

Unless your toddler signed up to be part of Freezing Saddles, her miles on that e-assist stroller will not count. And your miles pushing it don't count, because you are not in the vehicle.

Yes, I'm being pedantic. Seventeen pages into this discussion, I've run out of witty comments. ;)


Shouldn't whatever conveyance is used have a "saddle?" That can freeze?

At the beginning of this discussion, I asked for help with definitions. Some pages in, someone questioned whether a recumbent bike actually had a "saddle." No response having been made to that observation, I am officially not requiring saddles. If someone manages to put in substantial miles on a skateboard or the like, we can taunt that person at the final happy hour, and change the rules for next time. Until then, I am done herding cats for this year.

ShawnoftheDread
12-22-2015, 12:35 PM
Come March I'll be skateboarding in Miami. All the taunting will be coming from me.

dasgeh
12-22-2015, 01:11 PM
You should have seen it when I put my toddler in an e-assist stroller. She was scared s***less. It was priceless...

You realize this exists, right?

https://www.4moms.com/origami

cvcalhoun
12-28-2015, 07:12 PM
I will just point out for anyone following at home that miles will not count unless the are designated on Strava as being on a bicycle. So all you skateboarders, etc., will need to adjust accordingly.

sszibler
01-07-2016, 05:43 PM
Sigh! Yoga's definitely out, because you need to have traveled to have anything recorded. (Remember, trainer miles don't count, even if Strava counts them.) Windsurfing is out, because you're not human powering it. For everything else, you must use your best judgment as to whether something is a "vehicle," and is within the spirit of this contest. Attempts to exploit loopholes will be punished with public humiliation at the final happy hour.

So, feet? Are feet considered a human-powered vehicle? Like, if I decide to walk to the gym some day instead of biking there? I'm not officially on a team because I just signed up - more reason for public humiliation and why I'll be staying home . . .

Sneakers! Sneakers would be the vehicle!

cvcalhoun
01-07-2016, 06:18 PM
So, feet? Are feet considered a human-powered vehicle? Like, if I decide to walk to the gym some day instead of biking there? I'm not officially on a team because I just signed up - more reason for public humiliation and why I'll be staying home . . .

Sneakers! Sneakers would be the vehicle!
Sigh! I'm pretty sure that under any definition of vehicle, feet are not a vehicle. Are you working toward a pointless prize for most occasion for public humiliation at the final happy hour?

schvin
01-03-2018, 09:09 AM
Wait, I can sleaze ride a skateboard? This makes planning and packing for travel much easier.

spotted a boosted skateboard in use this morning, with a junior on the back. i realize it wasn't out of the region, but thought maybe you were doing a trial run and going for some kidical points. turned out it was not you. my camera response was a bit slow, unfortunately.

Tania
01-03-2018, 09:24 AM
spotted a boosted skateboard in use this morning, with a junior on the back. i realize it wasn't out of the region, but thought maybe you were doing a trial run and going for some kidical points. turned out it was not you. my camera response was a bit slow, unfortunately.

I vacillate between horror and total respect whenever I see this guy.