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cvcalhoun
11-28-2015, 11:30 PM
As requested, I'm not replying to the original post, quoted below. However, so far, I haven't seen even any of the "we start discussing and planning it" part that was supposed to start around Halloween, much less the "Registration starts" part that was supposed to start around now. And I'm itching to sign up. Anyone know what's happening?


****PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD. **** This is a post to provide a single spot for information you will need to participate in this yearís Bike Arlington Freezing Saddles (BAFS). I will update this post as needed to keep information current. If you have a question, or think that something needs to be added or changed in this post, PM me please. Or post in a different thread. This one will work http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?9375-Freezing-Saddles-Sticky-Post&p=125540#post125540 This is not a thread to discuss or plan this yearís freezing saddles, just to have one place for people to check in on current status and find out what they need to know to sign up and play.
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What you need to know if you would like to participate in Freezing Saddles 2016

Freezing Saddles 2016 will (probably) run from January 1 through the last day of winter (as it has in the past). This yearís game hasnít been organized yet. If you would like to participate in BAFS2016, you do not need to do anything right now. Check back later and this post will be updated with sign-up and other relevant information as it is decided on.

Rough guestimate of schedule based on previous years:

Somewhere around Halloween: we start discussing and planning it. When this happens, Iíll edit this post to include links to relevant planning threads, for those that are interested.

Somewhere around Thanksgiving: Registration starts. When this happens, Iíll edit this post to include instructions and links.

Christmas day or Christmas eve or some day very close to that: registration closes. If you want to play, be sure to check back in sometime before that so you can sign up.

January 1, 12:01am (12:00:01?) Game on.

Somewhere in the approximate vicinity of the start of the game: there is a happy hour. Teams are announced. People will have to create and join their teams in strava. Even though you already registered, you'll still need to find your team on strava, so you will need to make sure you know how to do this. Again, links and whatnot will be provided here when available.

AND PLEASE PLEASE DONíT REPLY TO THIS THREAD.:p

Raymo853
11-29-2015, 07:15 AM
I am 100% sure I will not be joining a team this year, however, am willing to help with planning and setup. Plus I have ideas for two or three challenges, depending on how much I want to outlay for prize purchasing and making.

Amalitza
11-29-2015, 08:06 AM
I don't know! You have all made a liar out of me! Or anyway a very bad estimator. I'm going to assume this is the start of planning and update the sticky to link here.

BrŁnÝ Moore
11-29-2015, 11:22 PM
Oh, worry you not. There will be a BrŁnÝ Coffee Challenge. I've been planning it since the last HH of BAFS15. Now, let's get BAFS16 up and running...

(Why'd our Team Assignment Mistress have to up and move to MSO?)

Steve O
11-30-2015, 11:29 AM
In the past, rcannon has taken the early lead on getting things started. I know not his level of interest this year. Others may have to step forward to fill the void. I will compile a list of to-do's later today and you (yes, you) can volunteer to help. FS is a grass- roots effort. Everyone chipping in is what makes it work. There is no one "in charge"

cvcalhoun
11-30-2015, 12:59 PM
I'm willing to help out right now. However, I should probably not be assigned to any projects that will go beyond the end of this month, as my work plans are uncertain after that. If someone can give me instructions on what to do, perhaps I could work on getting people registered or assigning people to teams?

Steve O
12-01-2015, 01:33 AM
Here is my brain dump on the list of major items that need to be covered for Freezing Saddles. Some of these will require coordination (e.g. registration and assignment) and some will require additional sub-tasks:


Registration
Team and Captain assignments
Web site/Data/Strava integration, etc.
Initial Happy Hour
Pointless Prizes
Final Happy Hour


Additional activities/efforts that enhance Freezing Saddles but are not necessary for it to function

Social/team rides
Side bets
Coffee clubs/happy hours
Social marketing
FSLNHPP


As I have for the last two years, I will coordinate the Pointless Prizes.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 02:56 AM
Okay, I'll volunteer to set up a registration form, if someone can tell me what information I should be collecting.

Amalitza
12-01-2015, 09:40 AM
Okay, I'll volunteer to set up a registration form, if someone can tell me what information I should be collecting.
We might need to agree on how to assign teams first. Last year, elwbikes did some kind of fancy team assigning that involved a combination of regional grouping, handicapping, and randomness. The collected information included if people want to be on a VA/MD/DC team (or didnít care) and zip code. But thatís only necessary if someone is going to do all that work again this year.* If we are going to use handicapping data for something, we need to know what data we want to collect. Last yearís results? Peopleís summer miles? Peopleís November miles? Peopleís self-predictions of what they might do? Probably also a good idea to first confirm we have
Web site/Data/Strava integration, etc. and can use Strava again.


Anyway, at a minimumÖ
Forum name
Email address
Strava number
Handicapping info, whatever we are going to use
Anything else we decide we need to make teams like regional info, willingness to be a team captain etc

*My suggestion would be to randomly assign teams, and use handicapping data (whatever it might be-- last yearís results probably easiest) to check if teams are too lopsided based on predetermined acceptable limits. If too lopsided, discard results and re-randomize. This would be my suggestion because randomizing is 1) EASY and 2) means people canít be penalized for over-performing last year or over-estimating their miles (and canít game the system by under-estimating their miles or being a slacker:) last year), but probably do need a mechanism to discard a random result that puts Rod Smith, Vicegrip, dcv, Subby and KayakCyndi all on the same team. But if people enjoyed being on locally grouped teams and someone wants do the work of figuring out how to make that happen, I won't argue about it or anything.

Mikey
12-01-2015, 11:31 AM
I have some ideas for side bets again. Although anyone is able to put them on. I can coordinate just to keep things straight.

Also I know my wife and I plan to participate, although she (as an alumna) is opting for the slacker team.

I vote against November miles as handicap since I haven't seriously logged a ride since the end of the NBC.

Mikey
12-01-2015, 11:33 AM
I have some ideas for side bets again. Although anyone is able to put them on. I can coordinate just to keep things straight.

Also I know my wife and I plan to participate, although she (as an alumna) is opting for the slacker team.

I vote against November miles as handicap since I haven't seriously logged a ride since the end of the NBC.

Steve O
12-01-2015, 11:43 AM
Okay, I'll volunteer to set up a registration form, if someone can tell me what information I should be collecting.

I suggest you go back to previous years to get ideas.

Steve O
12-01-2015, 11:49 AM
Also I know my wife and I plan to participate, although she (as an alumna) is opting for the slacker team.


For the record, I am anti slacker team. Sign up to play the game. Those who don't want to play the game are more than welcome to be "friends" of Freezing Saddles and help with rides, happy hours, prizes, side bets or anything else. We can keep a page with their names on it if it makes them feel more a part of it. But I think it's pointless to have a "team" that isn't really playing the game.

Here's what I wrote last year on the same topic:

My two cents:

The Slackers should not be a "team." Just a group. Since, by definition, they are not caring about their riding, no stats should be kept and most definitely not on the leaderboard. If you want to be a slacker and want to keep track of your winter riding, then join the game for real or just use your own Strava feed.

Perhaps they can be called the Slacker Freezing Saddle Supporters or Spectators or something. Their names can appear somewhere on the site, perhaps with bios highlighting their pusillanimousness.

They may participate in individual side bets, but since they are not a "team," they cannot participate in team side bets.

As a "group" they can organize rides or happy hours or hold events or anything else they like. Since they aren't really playing the game but want to pretend they are, they should take it upon themselves to more actively volunteer for the stuff that makes FS work.

Personally, I think the existence of the slackers is pointless. A slacker can do everything he or she wants without having to fill out the silly form: banter on the forum, come to coffee clubs, help arlingtonrider with happy hours, make pointless prizes, enjoy group rides, etc. If you just want your name somewhere on the web site because it makes you feel good, well, fine.

Tim Kelley
12-01-2015, 11:55 AM
For the record, I am anti slacker team. Sign up to play the game. Those who don't want to play the game are more than welcome to be "friends" of Freezing Saddles and help with rides, happy hours, prizes, side bets or anything else. We can keep a page with their names on it if it makes them feel more a part of it. But I think it's pointless to have a "team" that isn't really playing the game.

I'd be in favor of participating as a slacker individual. I don't want to be on a team, but I'd like to have my name on a scoreboard with a tally of how many points I have just to see what kind of score my regular riding gets me.

Steve O
12-01-2015, 12:01 PM
Here is the introduction rcannon wrote last year, which is still applicable:




Please keep in mind that this is a game of the forum, by the forum, and for the forum. The whole point is a bunch of friends coming together to goof off. We hope that people will join in the reindeer games, come to happy hours, participate and even organize pointless prizes and side bets, and join in group rides.

Take care inviting weirdos to join. If you dont think the weirdo is going to join in the forum, or come to a happy hour, or join a group ride - maybe don't invite them. If on the other hand the weirdo likes reindeer games, and is interested in adopting a puppy, maybe they are perfect. Every year new people assimilate into our community during FS. But there are also those who sign up, never show up, never play - and we then have to deal with how to fix our game.

Steve O
12-01-2015, 12:10 PM
I'd be in favor of participating as a slacker individual. I don't want to be on a team, but I'd like to have my name on a scoreboard with a tally of how many points I have just to see what kind of score my regular riding gets me.

Count your days. Multiply by 10. Count your miles. Add together. Done.

Freezing Saddles is a team game. Saying "I don't want to be on a team" means you don't want to play Freezing Saddles. If you want to play soccer or football or basketball, you have to play on a team. Same here.
Strava already keeps track of your individual riding at a far more granular level than the FS leaderboard does. And it has all sorts of ways to compare yourself to other riders. If you want to play the game, join a team.

lordofthemark
12-01-2015, 12:43 PM
I have an idea for a prize, that would be ELITE.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 01:02 PM
I suggest you go back to previous years to get ideas.
Does someone have a copy of or link to previous years' forms?

Tania
12-01-2015, 01:18 PM
I really had been looking forward to this year's FS. Now...not so much.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 01:18 PM
We might need to agree on how to assign teams first. Last year, elwbikes did some kind of fancy team assigning that involved a combination of regional grouping, handicapping, and randomness. The collected information included if people want to be on a VA/MD/DC team (or didnít care) and zip code. But thatís only necessary if someone is going to do all that work again this year.* If we are going to use handicapping data for something, we need to know what data we want to collect. Last yearís results? Peopleís summer miles? Peopleís November miles? Peopleís self-predictions of what they might do? Probably also a good idea to first confirm we have and can use Strava again.


Anyway, at a minimumÖ
Forum name
Email address
Strava number
Handicapping info, whatever we are going to use
Anything else we decide we need to make teams like regional info, willingness to be a team captain etc

*My suggestion would be to randomly assign teams, and use handicapping data (whatever it might be-- last yearís results probably easiest) to check if teams are too lopsided based on predetermined acceptable limits. If too lopsided, discard results and re-randomize. This would be my suggestion because randomizing is 1) EASY and 2) means people canít be penalized for over-performing last year or over-estimating their miles (and canít game the system by under-estimating their miles or being a slacker:) last year), but probably do need a mechanism to discard a random result that puts Rod Smith, Vicegrip, dcv, Subby and KayakCyndi all on the same team. But if people enjoyed being on locally grouped teams and someone wants do the work of figuring out how to make that happen, I won't argue about it or anything.
I would vote against locally assigned teams. Last year, I did not ask to be on one, but ended up on one anyway because they ran out of people for a team in my area. Having locally assigned teams meant that some were at an immediate disadvantage for things like bridge challenges and Arlington Strava art challenges. And it didn't really seem to foster more get-togethers, which I assume was the point.

I also think last year's handicap system worked as well as anything. Returning people got handicapped by the previous year's miles. New people got asked if they were ringers (i.e., likely to have some very high number of miles per week), and were otherwise assigned randomly.

Anyway, if I can get a link to previous year's forms, and can get a team assignment person to tell me what information is wanted this year, I can get this show on the road.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 01:20 PM
I really had been looking forward to this year's FS. Now...not so much.
Why not?

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 01:26 PM
Some people like being on a slacker team. It enables them to keep track of their points. It enables us to have a record of their points for next year's handicapping. It keeps the last place regular team motivated. (We can't fall behind the Slackers!) It keeps them involved socially. Yes, the scores are meaningless. But I see several advantages and no disadvantages to having them around, so long as the "team" is limited to veterans.

Tania
12-01-2015, 01:33 PM
Why not?

SteveO's tone in this thread just sucked the life out of it for me. If I'm already annoyed (granted, I admit it's pretty easy to annoy me and I tend to quickly take my ball and go home...especially where the internet is involved), then I can only imagine how it will be later on.

Anyway, I've been trying to find the link to last year's registration to help you out (rather than just vaguely referencing things that are buried deep in random threads) and I found something that said registration was on the first page of the FS 2015 thread BUT I see that's a thread you started and there's no link. But I'm going to keep looking!

Tania
12-01-2015, 01:36 PM
Does someone have a copy of or link to previous years' forms?



Is this it? Looks like it was a google doc/form although it's expired.

http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?7864-Freezing-Saddles-2015-At-Least-Yer-Not-in-Kiev-Comradehttp://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?7864-Freezing-Saddles-2015-At-Least-Yer-Not-in-Kiev-Comrade

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 01:39 PM
Is this it? Looks like it was a google doc/form although it's expired.

http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?7864-Freezing-Saddles-2015-At-Least-Yer-Not-in-Kiev-Comradehttp://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?7864-Freezing-Saddles-2015-At-Least-Yer-Not-in-Kiev-Comrade
Yes, this is why I'd like to find someone who has a copy of a prior year's form. The original doesn't show what questions were asked.

jrenaut
12-01-2015, 01:44 PM
SteveO's tone in this thread just sucked the life out of it for me. If I'm already annoyed (granted, I admit it's pretty easy to annoy me and I tend to quickly take my ball and go home...especially where the internet is involved), then I can only imagine how it will be later on.

Anyway, I've been trying to find the link to last year's registration to help you out (rather than just vaguely referencing things that are buried deep in random threads) and I found something that said registration was on the first page of the FS 2015 thread BUT I see that's a thread you started and there's no link. But I'm going to keep looking!

Bear in mind that, every year, the thread to discuss this year's Freezing Saddles is terrible. I don't know how well you know Steve O, but I can assure you he is uncompromising in this thread only because he very much wants Freezing Saddles to succeed, and he has a good track record of backing that up.

I hate the getting started discussion. I close my eyes and stick my fingers in my ears until someone puts out the sign up sheet. It gets much better from there.

If I get a chance, I'll update the Freezing Saddles site to replace the display name of all Slackers with insults from my five-year-old.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 01:46 PM
Bear in mind that, every year, the thread to discuss this year's Freezing Saddles is terrible. I don't know how well you know Steve O, but I can assure you he is uncompromising in this thread only because he very much wants Freezing Saddles to succeed, and he has a good track record of backing that up.

I hate the getting started discussion. I close my eyes and stick my fingers in my ears until someone puts out the sign up sheet. It gets much better from there.

If I get a chance, I'll update the Freezing Saddles site to replace the display name of all Slackers with insults from my five-year-old.
Just don't do that before we have a chance to use it for handicapping purposes!

vvill
12-01-2015, 02:11 PM
Just wait for Bob to appear in this thread, it should clear up most of the reg. questions.

Other things:
- I would check with hozn/jrenaut to see if they could just do a form on the website? Maybe integrate it with the Strava token/login. That way it could easily be reused in future competitions and the data used for team assignments, etc. could be stored in similar fashion. And you can only sign up if you've already got your Strava account working.
- Agree about no geographic teams.
- Slacker team 4eva. It's not that slackers don't care about the riding in BAFS and the competition, they just don't necessarily want to be competing in a team. Because it's a team game, when you join a team you are actually making a commitment of sorts (even if it's friendly/casual). And anyone who has clicked through some of the stats/categories would see that we have some pretty awesome queries going on that Strava does not easily give you (integrating with weather data, for one).

rcannon100
12-01-2015, 02:15 PM
The consensus is that there is a slacker team. There must be a consensus to change that.

I am interested in joining the slacker team.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 02:18 PM
The consensus is that there is a slacker team. There must be a consensus to change that.

I am interested in joining the slacker team.
Well, if you give me last year's registration questions, I can make that happen. How's that for a bribe? ;-)

Steve O
12-01-2015, 02:19 PM
Does someone have a copy of or link to previous years' forms?

I don't have the form, but somewhere in my computer at home I have the output from the form, so I should be able to provide the information that we collected from last year. Hang tight, and I will dig that up tonight.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 02:20 PM
I don't have the form, but somewhere in my computer at home I have the output from the form, so I should be able to provide the information that we collected from last year. Hang tight, and I will dig that up tonight.
Thank you!

consularrider
12-01-2015, 02:21 PM
The consensus is that there is a slacker team. There must be a consensus to change that.

I am interested in joining the slacker team.

I'm worried that half the usual participants have said that they want to be on the slacker team this year. That means they're going to win based on sheer numbers.

rcannon100
12-01-2015, 02:28 PM
I'm worried that half the usual participants have said that they want to be on the slacker team this year. That means they're going to win based on sheer numbers.



(1) This is a consensus driven process
(2) There is consensus for a slacker team
(3) A slacker team is for people who do not want to compete in the overall competition, but who do want to participate in the reindeer games. They do not have a team score. There should be no team score showing up on the score board.

Amalitza
12-01-2015, 02:29 PM
Yes, this is why I'd like to find someone who has a copy of a prior year's form. The original doesn't show what questions were asked.

Try it now. (turns out rcannon made me an editor on it last year for handling late registrations, so when I followed Tania's links, I had the ability to tell it to "resume collecting responses".)

vvill
12-01-2015, 02:30 PM
Multiple slacker teams!! :rolleyes:

dkel
12-01-2015, 02:32 PM
The consensus is that there is a slacker team. There must be a consensus to change that.

I bet we could get a consensus to put SteveO on a team by himself. ;)

For my own part, I don't want to be on a slacker team, but I may have to be because of the slow recovery of my knees. I want to be a part of the shenanigans (like last year's photo challenge) but I may not be able to put in the miles I would want to put in, especially in support of a competing team. I busted it last year to keep up and do my part, and would hate to let down a team this year (especially if anyone looked at my stats from the last two years, and had any kind of expectation based on that).

What about a team of alternates? That could encompass low- or questionable-mileage people that are otherwise reliably participating, and could be used to replace wash-outs or "wierdos" (as rcannon calls them) who disappear. Riders from the alternates team would be exempt from expectations, as they would be replacing no-shows, and a low-mileage alternate is better than a no-show.

Steve O
12-01-2015, 02:33 PM
The consensus is that there is a slacker team. There must be a consensus to change that.


I'm not going to fall on my sword re: slackers, but I do think it should be limited to FS veterans only. We also need to make it clear that you don't have to ride miles like dcv to be an asset to a team. Nor even every day. Last year a number of people requested the slacker team because they thought they were going to have to ride 1000 miles or something. No. Everyone is welcome in Freezing Saddles. Everyone, that is, who wants a little motivation to get on their bike in the winter--even if that means they are now riding 2-3x week instead of barely at all. That was the original intent, and it has worked for many. Just ask Justin Antos.

I still have no idea what the point of a slacker team is.

dkel
12-01-2015, 02:35 PM
I'm not going to fall on my sword re: slackers, but I do think it should be limited to FS veterans only. We also need to make it clear that you don't have to ride miles like dcv to be an asset to a team. Nor even every day. Last year a number of people requested the slacker team because they thought they were going to have to ride 1000 miles or something. No. Everyone is welcome in Freezing Saddles. Everyone, that is, who wants a little motivation to get on their bike in the winter--even if that means they are now riding 2-3x week instead of barely at all. That was the original intent, and it has worked for many. Just ask Justin Antos.

I agree with this, especially the idea about FS veterans.


I still have no idea what the point of a slacker team is.

This is because you are a robot.

(Seriously! I should stop picking on SteveO! I love the guy, but these opportunities are too good to pass up!)

Steve O
12-01-2015, 02:36 PM
Multiple slacker teams!! :rolleyes:

I have a good idea. Let's make ALL the teams slacker teams. Each person is assigned to a slacker team based on some handicapping scheme. Each slacker team will have about the same number of players, so it's sort of even.

jrenaut
12-01-2015, 02:41 PM
- I would check with hozn/jrenaut to see if they could just do a form on the website? Maybe integrate it with the Strava token/login. That way it could easily be reused in future competitions and the data used for team assignments, etc. could be stored in similar fashion. And you can only sign up if you've already got your Strava account working.

This would be possible but likely not in time for this year's competition. I have a little more time this year than last, but this is a pretty serious undertaking.

dkel
12-01-2015, 02:47 PM
This would be possible but likely not in time for this year's competition. I have a little more time this year than last, but this is a pretty serious undertaking.

I'm confused: this implies that you haven't been working on it all year long.

vern
12-01-2015, 02:52 PM
The consensus is that there is a slacker team. There must be a consensus to change that.

I am interested in joining the slacker team.

Alex, I'd like Tautologies for $1000, please!

jrenaut
12-01-2015, 02:55 PM
I'm confused: this implies that you haven't been working on it all year long.

I'd lie, but since the project is open source you can check my commits.

dkel
12-01-2015, 02:58 PM
As always, the #BAFS thread wins the prize for best (and most ridiculous) thread of the year.

Even after the ELF spectacle.

wheels&wings
12-01-2015, 04:11 PM
(1) This is a consensus driven process
(2) There is consensus for a slacker team


Um. Really?

I think you and I both have some background in the art of consensus-buildingÖmulti-day tortured-but-empowering Quaker-style discussions and suchlike. But here Iím seeing a different sort of process. Not sure what youíre smoking in your pipe, but maybe I should try it too. :)

That said, I think itís great if we can find a way to be inclusive and welcoming to all sorts of riders in an affiliated Friends-of-Freezing-Saddles group.

schvin
12-01-2015, 04:17 PM
i'm excited for #BAFS this year!

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 05:58 PM
Try it now. (turns out rcannon made me an editor on it last year for handling late registrations, so when I followed Tania's links, I had the ability to tell it to "resume collecting responses".)

Got it, thanks! I've created my own form for this year (with some minor improvements over last year's form), but have not included the geographical questions. I'll add those if we really want to have teams based on geography, but I'm opposed.

Steve O
12-01-2015, 06:10 PM
Got it, thanks! I've created my own form for this year (with some minor improvements over last year's form), but have not included the geographical questions. I'll add those if we really want to have teams based on geography, but I'm opposed.

It might be worth leaving in the zip code question. That way we will have it if we need it.
Also, FS is a regional game. In the past people from far away states have wanted to join. As much as they may be nice and even strongly committed riders, FS is really for people who can attend group rides, coffee clubs, happy hours and the FSLNHPP. That is unlikely for those in Chicago or Minneapolis...or even Kiev.

hozn
12-01-2015, 07:00 PM
- I would check with hozn/jrenaut to see if they could just do a form on the website? Maybe integrate it with the Strava token/login. That way it could easily be reused in future competitions and the data used for team assignments, etc. could be stored in similar fashion. And you can only sign up if you've already got your Strava account working.

I really wanted to make that happen for this year, but I've been working overtime at work since Aug, so have had no time for any extracurricular software development. Heck, I am barely finding enough time to ride my bike.

This isn't a huge undertaking, but it won't happen this year unless someone [else] wants to do it.

From a data perspective, we need the following pieces of information for every registrant:
- Name
- Strava ID
- Forum ID
- (And eventually) Team Assignment

We also need to know the handicap if we want to provide for awards based on sandbagging. I was not involved in the algorithm for team assignment last year; I have no idea how that happened or any opinion on the effectiveness of last year's system. I don't recall it being significantly different than previous years.



- Slacker team 4eva. It's not that slackers don't care about the riding in BAFS and the competition, they just don't necessarily want to be competing in a team. Because it's a team game, when you join a team you are actually making a commitment of sorts (even if it's friendly/casual). And anyone who has clicked through some of the stats/categories would see that we have some pretty awesome queries going on that Strava does not easily give you (integrating with weather data, for one).

I have personally put myself on the slacker team in the past primarily because (1) there's value in adding myself to the leaderboard from a software development/testing perspective and (2) I'm wise enough not to actually play the game for real again ;-)

But I think vvill hits the nail on the head here. It's nice to allow people to be involved in the social aspect (and individual accomplishment awards??) without making the commitment to ride for a team.

I'm not sure how many more years I'll be interested in doing development or maintenance work on the backend, but I'm happy to do it again this year. There are many things I would like to improve; from a professional perspective, the app is pretty embarrassing, so maybe I'll take some time to improve that this year.

My ultimate goal with the codebase is to make it possible for people in different parts of the country/world/universe to organize their own cycling competitions with their own rules/team frameworks/metrics. dcv had asked about using this for his workplace last year; it'd be nice to see a generic competition framework realized.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 07:04 PM
It might be worth leaving in the zip code question. That way we will have it if we need it.
Also, FS is a regional game. In the past people from far away states have wanted to join. As much as they may be nice and even strongly committed riders, FS is really for people who can attend group rides, coffee clubs, happy hours and the FSLNHPP. That is unlikely for those in Chicago or Minneapolis...or even Kiev.
Okay, Zip Code is back, and consularider is out unless he comes back from Kiiv. Other geographic information is out unless there is a need for it. Slackers team is in, but only for veterans. Requirement to disclose last year's miles for those who participated last year is in. Newbies need not disclose usual riding unless they have over 120 miles per week.

Once we have consensus on these issues, and I've tested the form with select people to make sure it doesn't break, I'll ask Amelitza to add the URL to the sticky.

jrenaut
12-01-2015, 07:04 PM
I'm not sure how many more years I'll be interested in doing development or maintenance work on the backend, but I'm happy to do it again this year. There are many things I would like to improve; from a professional perspective, the app is pretty embarrassing, so maybe I'll take some time to improve that this year..
So if anyone knows a young Python developer with time on his/her hands, perhaps you might suggest they take part.

hozn
12-01-2015, 07:15 PM
So if anyone knows a young Python developer with time on his/her hands, perhaps you might suggest they take part.
Yeah, and give me their name too so we can maybe hire them -- and then I will have more free time! :-)

Mtansill
12-01-2015, 08:25 PM
Okay, Zip Code is back.

Yay. Because what was said about this being a social thing is very correct for me. I'm hoping for a Maryland team, because I would never be able to make it to Virginia or even DC on a regular basis. And I know how crazy competitive you Virginians are. You don't want me on your team. ;)

...Busy recruiting more Marylanders...

Rod Smith
12-01-2015, 08:46 PM
I'm volunteering to captain the Slacker team this year and I'm inviting Eric Williams, Chris Randall, Cyndi Janetkzo, Chris Shue, Seth Pollack, Vincent Ng, Kurt Mickelwait, Shawn Dread, and Tim Vandish to join my team. Sorry Tim, Pete, Jeff, Hozn, Amy. Y'all didn't make the cut. Ride lots and good luck on making the Slacker team in 2017!

Megabeth
12-01-2015, 09:04 PM
*raises hand meekly* But, I was injured and had surgery and couldn't participate even on the Slacker team in 2015. Lemme on the slacker team this year...pleeeeease. :)

Rod Smith
12-01-2015, 09:08 PM
OK, you can have my spot.

Greenbelt
12-01-2015, 09:08 PM
Looking forward to this year's festivities!

- the original slacker, I think.

(For the record, I think I invented the contentious slacker team concept. I didn't want to get burned out trying to do too many miles for the team. So it was sort of designed for not-too-bright folks like me who didn't want to be tempted to ride stupid miles and get themselves hurt! Or people already recovering from injuries who didn't want to go beyond safe limits trying to keep up with their teammates.)

Megabeth
12-01-2015, 09:10 PM
OK, you can have my spot.

Nooo, I want you to be the Cap'n to my Tennille...

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 10:16 PM
I'm volunteering to captain the Slacker team this year and I'm inviting Eric Williams, Chris Randall, Cyndi Janetkzo, Chris Shue, Seth Pollack, Vincent Ng, Kurt Mickelwait, Shawn Dread, and Tim Vandish to join my team. Sorry Tim, Pete, Jeff, Hozn, Amy. Y'all didn't make the cut. Ride lots and good luck on making the Slacker team in 2017!

Chris Randall is ineligible, unless he gets back here from Kyiv. Just sayin'.

KelOnWheels
12-01-2015, 10:53 PM
It might be worth leaving in the zip code question. That way we will have it if we need it.
Also, FS is a regional game. In the past people from far away states have wanted to join. As much as they may be nice and even strongly committed riders, FS is really for people who can attend group rides, coffee clubs, happy hours and the FSLNHPP. That is unlikely for those in Chicago or Minneapolis...or even Kiev.
OH FINE. I'll just be over here in the corner...

Steve O
12-01-2015, 11:13 PM
Here's what I think I've heard and also what I am just making up now, because it makes sense:

- Slackers must be veterans of FS. Newbies will be assigned a team. This is good. Being on a team is much more fun anyway. (Using the rcannon modified definition of "consensus," there is "consensus" on this point.)
- Slackers do not appear on team leaderboard. So not really a "team;" more like a "bunch o' "
- Slackers do appear on the individual leaderboard, for whatever gratification that brings them.
- Slackers not eligible for individual pointless prizes that are based on riding stats (most miles, longest ride, #kidical, 8th slowest, billy goat, etc.)
- Slackers are eligible for non-statistical side bets and pointless prizes (ride titles, photo contests, beerneuring and the like)
- Slackers are highly encouraged to contribute in other ways to the success of FS

Steve O
12-01-2015, 11:24 PM
Here's an idea to throw a little more arbitrariness into the mix, and also to keep everyone in the game longer.

Last year we had a list of extra riders: joined late or whatever. I expect we will have the same this year.

IDEA:
During the game, at certain points in time (I have some ideas about how this might be done), the last place team gets one of the bench riders--perhaps randomly assigned. Adding a rider will probably bump them up a few spots, but is unlikely to take them to first. Then it happens again, last place team gets a new rider. We do this several times during the game. This will help alleviate the hopelessness that can set in for the last place team. It also can help make up for those teams who are unluckily assigned a no-show or two. And it should serve to tighten up the gaps, making it more interesting all around.

Discussion welcomed.

cvcalhoun
12-01-2015, 11:38 PM
The following are the changes I am planning to make in this year's registration form. If anyone has any objections, speak now or forever (or at least until FS 2017) hold your peace:

All geographical information other than Zip Codes has been removed. The form will not submit unless the Zip Code is between 20000 and 29999.
All answers that would disqualify you will result in the form not submitting. For example, if you don't agree to the terms of the contest or say, "I'm not really intending to participate in anything, so I'm not registering for Freezing Saddles," the form will not go through with such answers.
The question about participation in the Slacker team specifically says you can't join that team unless you have previously participated in Freezing Saddles.
A CAPTCHA has been added, so spammers and bots can't sign up. (They probably wouldn't enjoy it anyway.)
A graphic of someone riding a bicycle through snowy mountains has been added to the top, just to give potential contestants an idea of what will be expected of them. :D
While intentional spelling and grammar errors have been left in, unintentional ones have been removed. (It is entirely within the discretion of Management to determine which ones were intentional.)

We're already overdue on putting up the registration form, so please let me know if you disagree with any of this.

Steve O
12-02-2015, 12:30 AM
The following are the changes I am planning to make in this year's registration form. If anyone has any objections, speak now or forever (or at least until FS 2017) hold your peace:

All geographical information other than Zip Codes has been removed. The form will not submit unless the Zip Code is between 20000 and 29999.
All answers that would disqualify you will result in the form not submitting. For example, if you don't agree to the terms of the contest or say, "I'm not really intending to participate in anything, so I'm not registering for Freezing Saddles," the form will not go through with such answers.
The question about participation in the Slacker team specifically says you can't join that team unless you have previously participated in Freezing Saddles.
A CAPTCHA has been added, so spammers and bots can't sign up. (They probably wouldn't enjoy it anyway.)
A graphic of someone riding a bicycle through snowy mountains has been added to the top, just to give potential contestants an idea of what will be expected of them. :D
While intentional spelling and grammar errors have been left in, unintentional ones have been removed. (It is entirely within the discretion of Management to determine which ones were intentional.)

We're already overdue on putting up the registration form, so please let me know if you disagree with any of this.



I might suggest changing the word "Team" to "Bunch o' " for the slackers, as suggested previously.
Be sure to change any year references to be appropriate
I think the "I am addicted to competition" line was one of the things that put off newbies. It's a game more than a competition. Best might be to take this question out entirely in order to avoid confusion. People who want to be one of the Bunch O' Slackers can just say so here. Since slackers need to be veterans, they are already following this discussion. If you want to leave it in, then soften the language.
Lose the stupid puppy references, of course.
It might be good to add links to this thread and even the threads from previous years to give newbies a taste of what they may be in for.

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 12:53 AM
Okay, I have now put up a registration form for everyone to look at and comment on at this link (http://freezingsaddles.x10host.com/). To prevent premature submissions, I have temporarily removed the "Submit" button. My responses to Steve O's comments are shown below. If anyone has any other comments, please let me know within the next 24 hours, so we can get this baby up and running!



I might suggest changing the word "Team" to "Bunch o' " for the slackers, as suggested previously. Done.
Be sure to change any year references to be appropriate Done.
I think the "I am addicted to competition" line was one of the things that put off newbies. It's a game more than a competition. Best might be to take this question out entirely in order to avoid confusion. People who want to be one of the Bunch O' Slackers can just say so here. Since slackers need to be veterans, they are already following this discussion. If you want to leave it in, then soften the language. Language softened.
Lose the stupid puppy references, of course. Aw, come on, we need to get rid of the puppies? I'm going to need confirmation from someone other than the notoriously anti-puppy Steve O before doing that!
It might be good to add links to this thread and even the threads from previous years to give newbies a taste of what they may be in for. I'm not sure I want to add multiple links. And specifically, I'm not sure I want to add a specific link to this thread. As others have pointed out, the planning thread is often the most contentious of the year. But I've added a link to the Freezing Saddles topic as a whole.

consularrider
12-02-2015, 02:40 AM
It might be worth leaving in the zip code question. That way we will have it if we need it.
Also, FS is a regional game. In the past people from far away states have wanted to join. As much as they may be nice and even strongly committed riders, FS is really for people who can attend group rides, coffee clubs, happy hours and the FSLNHPP. That is unlikely for those in Chicago or Minneapolis...or even Kiev.

Uhhh, I can fly over just to attend the opening BAFS Happy Hour and multiple morning coffee clubs if that will make you happy. (FYI my official zip code is 20189, Dulles, VA)

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 04:05 AM
Uhhh, I can fly over just to attend the opening BAFS Happy Hour and multiple morning coffee clubs if that will make you happy. (FYI my official zip code is 20189, Dulles, VA)

Well, if you signed up and used any Zip Code from Maryland, DC, or Virginia, I wouldn't tell! But since someone might notice, anyway, I'll leave it to the rest of this forum whether we have a consensus on the issue.

peterw_diy
12-02-2015, 04:23 AM
Count me as another fan of the "local" team groupings. Team rides are part of the fun, and I'll spare you all the full sermon, but I'm not going to ferry my bike on top of the car just to go for a ride. I like to leave the iceberg melter parked as much as possible (and I'm too cheap and busy to use Metro). So I really hope whatever kind souls tackle the team assignments will try to honor preferences for local teams.

cvcalhoun, didn't last year's form ask about local team preference? Would you please add that question back in, even if you think you need to add a caveat that there has been some debate and we might not factor your answer into team assignments?


So if anyone knows a young Python developer with time on his/her hands, perhaps you might suggest they take part.

"Young" developer, huh? Damned agism even when asking for volunteers. You realize Guido himself is nearly 60, right? GRRR. If intended as a joke, NOT FUNNY.

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 04:29 AM
Count me as another fan of the "local" team groupings. Team rides are part of the fun, and I'll spare you all the full sermon, but I'm not going to ferry my bike on top of the car just to go for a ride. I like to leave the iceberg melter parked as much as possible (and I'm too cheap and busy to use Metro). So I really hope whatever kind souls tackle the team assignments will try to honor preferences for local teams.

cvcalhoun, didn't last year's form ask about local team preference? Would you please add that question back in, even if you think you need to add a caveat that there has been some debate and we might not factor your answer into team assignments?



"Young" developer, huh? Damned agism even when asking for volunteers. You realize Guido himself is nearly 60, right? GRRR. If intended as a joke, NOT FUNNY.
I don't want to ask people whether they want to be on a local team unless they actually have the option to be on a local team. That's just a recipe for confusion.

I would prefer not to have local teams. Last year, they were apparently so unpopular that people like me who didn't want to be on them got stuck on them anyway. But if the group thinks otherwise, I'll go with the group. I just need to know quickly, so I can finalize the form.

peterw_diy
12-02-2015, 04:48 AM
To quickly and concisely capture opinions on local teams, I have posted a poll:http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?9627-Poll-should-Freezing-Saddles-offer-quot-local-quot-teams

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 04:52 AM
To quickly and concisely capture opinions on local teams, I have posted a poll:http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?9627-Poll-should-Freezing-Saddles-offer-quot-local-quot-teams
Thanks for that! I doubt we're going to have anyone volunteer to do team assignments in the next 24 hours. But I'd really like to get registration started. The poll should help collect the necessary information quickly.

jrenaut
12-02-2015, 06:50 AM
"Young" developer, huh? Damned agism even when asking for volunteers. You realize Guido himself is nearly 60, right? GRRR. If intended as a joke, NOT FUNNY.
Nothing at all against non-young developers. I just meant that if I were 24 and unattached, I'd probably volunteer to take over. Since I'm older than that and married with two children, I'll make a smaller contribution.

hozn
12-02-2015, 07:14 AM
- Slackers not eligible for individual pointless prizes that are based on riding stats (most miles, longest ride, #kidical, 8th slowest, billy goat, etc.)


This might be tricky w/o changing software (to indicate that members of a specific "team" are not actually playing the game).

Perhaps this concept of slackers deserves a *little* more discussion. Maybe, for example, what we really want is simply to allow anyone (with some basic restrictions about being a member of the forum, being in region, etc.) to be able to authorize the Strava app and to have their instagram photos show up, and their rides count in overall stats, etc. but not to actually be assigned to any team and not to appear on any leaderboards. Sideline participant. Because riding in the winter is something that likes company, and I think for the Slackers team that is really what this is about. Honestly, I think that is largely what Freezing Saddles is about.

I agree that it's kinda pointless (no pun intended) to have one or more teams that aren't actually participating in the competition. Those types of exceptions suggest we might be trying to hammer in a nail with a screwdriver.

Having teamless participants might also be effectively how we deal with late comers, though I really like the proposal of randomly assigning people to weakest teams to shake things up.

Rod Smith
12-02-2015, 08:40 AM
If you're placed on a DC team your team will be finish last or second to last.

Sunyata
12-02-2015, 08:49 AM
I can volunteer to do team assignments. I will shoot Emma a message and see if she would not mind giving me a couple of pointers on what she did last year, since she did such an excellent job with it.

TwoWheelsDC
12-02-2015, 09:02 AM
I've sorta had a change of heart about the Slacker team. I was going to be on it last year, since I was in school full time and wasn't going to be riding much...but then I ended up choosing to be on a regular team. Sure enough, I didn't ride much, but I did ride every day and still ended up decently high in the overall rankings and right about the middle on my team. My thinking is that even if I don't make an effort to ride extra because of the competition, my limited winter riding this year (basically commuting) will still be enough to make a solid contribution to a team...because frankly, there are a lot of people who sign up and flake out, so regularly putting up any amount of miles automatically puts you above about 25% of the people in the game. So I think the attitude of "I don't plan on riding a ton of extra miles, so I want to be on the Slacker team" doesn't make a lot of sense to me anymore (granted, I'm not particularly competitive in this type of game). I think if you maybe plan on riding once or twice a week or less, and you just want the social aspect/motivation to get outside when you normally wouldn't, then maybe it makes sense to join the Slacker team (although I do like the idea of saying Slackers is for BAFS veterans only), but if you're going to maintain a somewhat regular riding schedule, I think it's worth joining a regular team.

That said, I'd be hesitant to employ too many rules on joining the Slacker team unless too many people try to join. It would be fairly easy to set a points threshold and just bump Slackers onto regular teams if they cross it. But I think last year there were only a few Slackers, so I don't think something like that would be necessary.

Rod Smith
12-02-2015, 09:33 AM
Slackers cheated my team out of Lanterne Rouge honors last year. We beat them on least points per rider though.

Amalitza
12-02-2015, 09:39 AM
Regarding slackers, there is no particular reason slackers need to fill out the registration form at all. In order to show up on the leaderboard, you need to 1) authorize the app, and 2) join a strava team that hozn/jrenaut add to the leaderboard. Registration form is really only necessary to gather info for team assignments, so if you are predetermined to not be on a team, itís not needed. Have rcannon or hozn or someone create a strava slacker team and let anyone who hangs out on the forum enough to know it exists join it. This would keep newcomers from confusing it with an actual team and thinking they need to sign up for it if theyíre not super-high mileage riders, which I think is the main objection to it? I donít think any regulars have any confusion about it being an actual team.

While Iím intending to join a real team this year, I think slackers should be allowed on the individual leaderboards. Getting to see my ďhours ridden after darkĒ type of stats was kinda the point for me last year. I have no opinion about the ďslacker teamĒ showing up on the team leaderboards, except that it seems like it might be more trouble for the programmers to deliberately exclude it (I actually donít know, maybe it isnít).

peterw_diy
12-02-2015, 09:42 AM
Nothing at all against non-young developers. I just meant that if I were 24 and unattached, I'd probably volunteer to take over. Since I'm older than that and married with two children, I'll make a smaller contribution.

I think there's an inverted bell curve for contribution availability of family types. Time decreases in the mating years, nearly evaporates in the nursing years, then, I hope, reappears as the juveniles gain independence, probably returns in full strength when the nest empties.

Steve O
12-02-2015, 09:47 AM
This might be tricky w/o changing software (to indicate that members of a specific "bunch o' " are not actually playing the game).


It wouldn't be necessary to change the software, although it would be good. If a slacker happened to "win" one of these, the actual pointless prize would just go to the next non-slacker on the list. Sort of like Lance Armstrong (in reverse or something:confused:).

Amalitza
12-02-2015, 09:48 AM
Chris Randall is ineligible, unless he gets back here from Kyiv. Just sayin'.


OH FINE. I'll just be over here in the corner...

I personally have no objection to grandfathering in previous players who have since moved and still participate in the forum, although admittedly sooner or later someone's bound to move somewhere warm and then we'd have to deal with whether or not that's allowed. But I'm not sure why everything else is up for discussion and this is not...

dkel
12-02-2015, 09:58 AM
If someone put in a lot of miles in last year's challenge, but plans not to put in nearly as many this year (for whatever reason), how is that person assigned to a team based on the information gathered by the form? The only reason I'm considering joining the slackers this year is that I'm not expecting to be able to put in a competitive effort when compared to my effort last year. As far as I can tell, if I were assigned to a non-slacker team, the handicapping system would then put that team at a disadvantage, since the assignment is based on last year's mileage. I just don't want to let anyone down, and I know how freakishly competitive people are around here (me included).

Steve O
12-02-2015, 10:09 AM
I think it would be good to remind ourselves why we do this crazy Freezing Saddles game every year. Here are my thoughts, and I welcome others' perspectives as well:

1 - To have fun!
2 - To bring new bicyclists into our welcoming and friendly community
3 - To provide a little motivation to ride our bikes more during the dark, cold winter
4 - To have fun!
5 - To create excuses for doing fun things, like rides, and wacky side bets, and happy hours, and last night parties
6 - To build the community on this Forum, which supports cycling and all it entails in the DC region
7 - To have fun!


Regarding slackers, there is no particular reason slackers need to fill out the registration form at all. In order to show up on the leaderboard, you need to 1) authorize the app, and 2) join a strava team that hozn/jrenaut add to the leaderboard.

But Freezing Saddles is so much more than having your name on a leaderboard. My name is on a bunch of segment leaderboards on Strava (way down the leaderboard, that is), and that's all interesting and such, but it does little to further engage me in the biking community (see #'s 2 & 6 above). This is why I think people should be on teams, particularly newbies. Vets are already part of our community, so it's less of an issue in their case. Having someone fill out the registration form requires them to at least commit to being part of the game. Sure, some end up flaking out, but eliminating any sort of up front effort at commitment so scores of people can just get their name on the FS website will reduce the game to nothing more than a statistical exercise.



Because riding in the winter is something that likes company, and I think for the Slackers team that is really what this is about. Honestly, I think that is largely what Freezing Saddles is about.

I agree that it's kinda pointless (no pun intended) to have one or more teams that aren't actually participating in the competition. Those types of exceptions suggest we might be trying to hammer in a nail with a screwdriver.

Agreed. Which is why I don't think there should be a Slackers "team," but rather a small number of former players who just don't want to fully play the game but want to be involved. Everyone else needs to register and play on a team. That's what makes it fun (see #'s 1, 4 & 7 above)

Steve O
12-02-2015, 10:15 AM
If someone put in a lot of miles in last year's challenge, but plans not to put in nearly as many this year (for whatever reason), how is that person assigned to a team based on the information gathered by the form? The only reason I'm considering joining the slackers this year is that I'm not expecting to be able to put in a competitive effort when compared to my effort last year. As far as I can tell, if I were assigned to a non-slacker team, the handicapping system would then put that team at a disadvantage, since the assignment is based on last year's mileage. I just don't want to let anyone down, and I know how freakishly competitive people are around here (me included).

So if teams were randomly assigned or another system were used that didn't put you in this position, would you play on a team?

If the reason some of our veterans want to opt for slackers is because they are concerned about this issue (last year's points unattainable this year), then I think that's a big problem. I, for one, think dkel is exactly the kind of person who should be on a team--not just for his miles, but for his whole person. Having awesome participants like dkel opting off a team is a problem, and we should find a solution that will encourage everyone to play and not have a system that disincentivizes full participation for any reason.

Amalitza
12-02-2015, 10:23 AM
SteveO, I think you misunderstood what I was suggesting. What I was suggesting is that

1) People who want to play the game sign up via the registration form. There is no option for "slacker team."
2) The "small number of former players who just don't want to fully play the game but want to be involved" don't need to sign the registration form and won't be fully playing the game. Because they will be "vets [who are] already part of the community", they will have other means of knowing how to join the slackers on strava and can do so if they choose.
3) Being on the (individual) leaderboards along with the people who are for-real playing helps keep slackers involved and social and contributes to all 7 of your points except probably #2.





But Freezing Saddles is so much more than having your name on a leaderboard. My name is on a bunch of segment leaderboards on Strava (way down the leaderboard, that is), and that's all interesting and such, but it does little to further engage me in the biking community (see #'s 2 & 6 above). This is why I think people should be on teams,

And this is why I think people should be allowed to be slackers. Freezing Saddles, the game with real teams, is a competition. Sure, it is a friendly competition which has a primary goal of being fun and socially inclusive, but we add up points and announce a winning team. Being a slacker allows you to do that so much more without competing. You can argue all you want to that people shouldn't be overly competitive and shouldn't worry about how many points they are scoring for their team, but that is ignoring human nature. You can't create a competition and then tell competitive people to not worry about competing.

wheels&wings
12-02-2015, 11:14 AM
Wow. It looks like a lot of progress in grappling with these tricky-but-important details. Thanks everyone.

Three points:
--My concern with the slacker concept is mostly in how it affects the rest of the teams and the entire Freezing Saddles by siphoning off those who may not be as hardcore, dare-devil, or stupid as some of us. I want people who are recovering from injuries or who canít ride every single day to feel welcome on our teams. I donít want FS to become a hyper-competitive venture only for the most elite riders with lots of spare time and with studs on their tires. Iím a single mom with massive eldercare obligations and extensive carpooling duties (never let your kids become competitive gymnasts. :) ) I want FS to be for all of us, even if we donít have time or capacity to log extra rides beyond our daily commute to the office.

--I like Amalitzaís idea of grandfathering in former riders living in similarly cold climes. I happen to like our former teammates, and I miss them. And if this helps bring them back for a HH, all the better!!

--FS was one of the best things in my entire year. The friendships, the camaraderie, the funny prizes, the stupid goofy activities like riding in circles around Haines Point at midnightÖ believe me, in my life there is little space for stupid and goofyÖit was a blast. I have five or six more pointless prizes I want to give out this year.

So I hope we can make it work, but at the same time Iím keenly aware of the enormous behind-the-scenes job that Hozn, Arlingtonrider and others have put into it in past years, and that they may not have time for, this year.

Mikey
12-02-2015, 11:37 AM
Some people like being on a slacker team. It enables them to keep track of their points. It enables us to have a record of their points for next year's handicapping. It keeps the last place regular team motivated. (We can't fall behind the Slackers!) It keeps them involved socially. Yes, the scores are meaningless. But I see several advantages and no disadvantages to having them around, so long as the "team" is limited to veterans.

Yes, this. For my wife, who lives and works out in Fairfax, the social aspect of FS is kind of moot. The tracking of miles an days is a great motivator. But again in suburban Fairfax 6 inches of snow plowed onto shoulders and sidewalks can mean weeks that the bike is not an option. Just my $0.02

dkel
12-02-2015, 11:45 AM
So if teams were randomly assigned or another system were used that didn't put you in this position, would you play on a team?

Maybe. I wouldn't want someone to be glad I was randomly assigned to their team, thinking I'm definitely going to pull off the mileage I did last year. It's all about managing expectations, I suppose.


I, for one, think dkel is exactly the kind of person who should be on a team--not just for his miles, but for his whole person. Having awesome participants like dkel opting off a team is a problem, and we should find a solution that will encourage everyone to play and not have a system that disincentivizes full participation for any reason.

Thanks for this kind compliment, especially after I called you a robot yesterday. :rolleyes:

Steve O
12-02-2015, 11:47 AM
1) People who want to play the game sign up via the registration form. There is no option for "slacker team."


I like this.



2) The "small number of former players who just don't want to fully play the game but want to be involved" don't need to sign the registration form and won't be fully playing the game. Because they will be "vets [who are] already part of the community", they will have other means of knowing how to join the slackers on strava and can do so if they choose.

Sure, this would work. One of my main issues with the Bunch O' Slackers is that our beloved vets are the very people who we want on teams (see dkel's note). Most of those who say they want to be a slacker are also active here, in the bike community, and/or ambassadors for cycling in general. It's a loss to both the game and building our community to have them opt off of being on a team. Personally I think it's sad that rcannon and hozn and the others aren't going to be on a team, cheering on their newcomer teammates who have never bike commuted in the winter before.

Mikey
12-02-2015, 11:49 AM
One way to ensure competitiveness is checked is to have larger teams. The first year we did this we had 5 on a team. A daily ride made a huge difference, and a weekend century by a teammate would cause your team to jump, even late in the season. With 10-11 players last year it takes about a month and then a few groups of teams emerged, and each team was just trying to beat the one right in front of it, and not be beat by the one behind it. If we get too large (like the NBC) one day doesn't move the needle very much at all. It all depends on how many people we get. I will say though that at least one of the side bets will be intended to build team camaraderie, and getting people out riding together. That will occur again this year.

Steve O
12-02-2015, 11:51 AM
Thanks for this kind compliment, especially after I called you a robot yesterday. :rolleyes:

No worries. I actually am a robot.

ian74
12-02-2015, 11:51 AM
I think it would be good to remind ourselves why we do this crazy Freezing Saddles game every year. Here are my thoughts, and I welcome others' perspectives as well:

1 - To have fun!
2 - To bring new bicyclists into our welcoming and friendly community
3 - To provide a little motivation to ride our bikes more during the dark, cold winter
4 - To have fun!
5 - To create excuses for doing fun things, like rides, and wacky side bets, and happy hours, and last night parties
6 - To build the community on this Forum, which supports cycling and all it entails in the DC region
7 - To have fun!

...

Agreed. Which is why I don't think there should be a Slackers "team," but rather a small number of former players who just don't want to fully play the game but want to be involved. Everyone else needs to register and play on a team. That's what makes it fun (see #'s 1, 4 & 7 above)

I have to say, all of the things in Steve O's list will happen. I joined this forum and didn't know really anyone. I was pretty much a lurker. I hesitantly signed up and was put on a team, I didn't know a single person on it. Of course I was worried about pulling my weight, but in the end it didn't matter. It got me outside in weather I would never have considered riding in. I learned more about cold weather riding, and accomplished more than I ever thought I could. I made great friends (including Steve O!) and met lots of new people!

I still see these people out and about, I met people at happy hours, started going to Coffee clubs and now I feel part of a solid, welcoming, community. There is some good natured ribbing and trash talking (Raymo...), but I never saw anyone really getting abused if they weren't riding.

I say, if your considering the slacker team, consider carefully! Honestly, I'll miss my teammates from last year. We had a lot of fun. We didn't do any group rides, since people have a lot of outside commitments, but we chatted here, on Strava and at happy hour. There was lots of encouragement and support.

We even got some awards at the end, a neat scarf. I say just do it. It can be as competitive as you want it to be, but it WILL BE fun. I promise.

I can't wait to sign up, I've been waiting since last year's ended.

I will beat last year's miles too. I got knobby tires and fenders on my hybrid, now Freezing saddles bike.

hozn
12-02-2015, 12:20 PM
And this is why I think people should be allowed to be slackers. Freezing Saddles, the game with real teams, is a competition. Sure, it is a friendly competition which has a primary goal of being fun and socially inclusive, but we add up points and announce a winning team. Being a slacker allows you to do that so much more without competing. You can argue all you want to that people shouldn't be overly competitive and shouldn't worry about how many points they are scoring for their team, but that is ignoring human nature. You can't create a competition and then tell competitive people to not worry about competing.

This strikes a chord with me. I'm fairly competitive - at least with myself, but even more than that, I'm from the midwest/Lutheran stock and we don't like to let people down. :-) Freezing Saddles 1st edition (with the small teams) was brutal. OTOH, I did awesome on my first endurance MTB race of the season. But I'm not going to do that to myself again. Human nature.

The only thing I would say is that there may be some value in providing a registration process in order to allow non-team folks onto the leaderboard. I.e. we may still wish to ensure that these people are forum members, live in the region (if people in charge decide that is a requirement), etc.

Also, if we do move forward with the idea of inserting folks from non-team pool (slackers and latecomers) into the mix later in the game -- retroactively -- then there would be value in having their rides/points already in the system.

Amalitza
12-02-2015, 12:41 PM
The only thing I would say is that there may be some value in providing a registration process in order to allow non-team folks onto the leaderboard. I.e. we may still wish to ensure that these people are forum members, live in the region (if people in charge decide that is a requirement), etc.



I was thinking the Strava club admin could function as gatekeeper. Last year I let vvill in the strava slackers' club after the fact, but wouldn't have if he'd been some random stranger.

fwiw, I don't personally have an objection to slackers signing up via registration form, just suggesting the option in case it might ease concerns about confusing new players.

Alcova cyclist
12-02-2015, 12:47 PM
I too would encourage would-be slackers to consider staying on a team. With SteveO's balancing idea using late registrants, the teams should be able to stay more balanced anyway so you might feel less pressure.

I really liked the team competitiveness aspect of it, but as someone said upthread, it was really mostly about catching the next team up and keeping the next team back at bay. If I recall last year, it was pretty clear about half way that everyone else was playing for 2nd at best anyway, and that didn't detract from BAFS for me at all. What would have detracted was if some of my stalwart teammates had been on the slackers team and not mighty team 5 (who shall not be named) because they were only going to ride 800 miles instead of the 1500 they did the year before or whatever. If the point is to build community, then having appreciable numbers of vets on the sidelines detracts from that.

I suppose there's always those who know they can't help themselves and ride way more than they really want to if they're on a team, but if the issue is more like "I don't want to hurt my team because I am going to do less than last year" then there ought to be a way around that.

DrP
12-02-2015, 01:48 PM
I have kind of like the idea of the winter riding I do anyway "counting" towards something. So, it looks like I could sign up for BAFS and continue doing the riding I regularly do - commuting and one weekly fun ride - and perhaps not join in on other rides (although the occasional happy hour) because I already ride about as often as I can now. However, I have a dumb phone and no GPS device nor really want them (yes, I know I sound like a curmudgeonly Luddite). Can I enter the rides in strava manually and still do this? (which I think means I cannot do any of the time or location challenges since it looks like the strava manual entry is simply length of ride and comments (no real start and stop time or location, unless in comments)). Does it make sense for me to join in under these conditions?

ian74
12-02-2015, 02:00 PM
I have kind of like the idea of the winter riding I do anyway "counting" towards something. So, it looks like I could sign up for BAFS and continue doing the riding I regularly do - commuting and one weekly fun ride - and perhaps not join in on other rides (although the occasional happy hour) because I already ride about as often as I can now. However, I have a dumb phone and no GPS device nor really want them (yes, I know I sound like a curmudgeonly Luddite). Can I enter the rides in strava manually and still do this? (which I think means I cannot do any of the time or location challenges since it looks like the strava manual entry is simply length of ride and comments (no real start and stop time or location, unless in comments)). Does it make sense for me to join in under these conditions?

Yes! You can enter the rides manually in Strava. I believe you can also enter ride duration. One of my teammates last year, wheels&wings, did just that. I say join!

jrenaut
12-02-2015, 02:03 PM
Does it make sense for me to join in under these conditions?
Yes. I don't do any of the time/location challenges even though I do have both a smartphone and a bike GPS. While many enjoy them, many others get a lot out of BAFS while totally ignoring them.

lordofthemark
12-02-2015, 02:16 PM
I am so impressed with the folks who do the coding and related organizing, whatever everyone else wants to do about slackers, geographic teams, etc is fine with me.

My goals for FS this year are to get more points than last year, do some beerneuring, and maybe contribute a pointless prize. And have fun and meet people. And of course to impress all the people I know who do not think it is possible to ride a bike in the winter. And to convince my family that I am, indeed, insane.

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 02:17 PM
Okay, I'm prepared to concede defeat on the issue of local teams. I've put the question back into the registration form (http://freezingsaddles.x10host.com/). I'm not sure it's necessary, given that the form already has Zip Code information, but I'll include it anyway.

The other controversial question has to do with what we do with Slackers. I've put up a poll at this link (http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?9629-Slackers). Again, I'm going to be finalizing the registration form (http://freezingsaddles.x10host.com/) late tonight, so please vote early (but not often).

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 03:01 PM
Thanks! Mine involved limited coding, although I did use a Wordpress site rather than Google forms. (That allowed me to refuse registration to people who chose certain wrong options, provide a bit neater compilation of the answers, add two different anti-spam measures, and put the nice header image at the top.) But I'm really excited about the competition. And having participated without volunteering much (other than setting up the team's first get-together, and creating a Facebook group for the team) in prior years, I figured I'd try to make myself useful this year.


I am so impressed with the folks who do the coding and related organizing, whatever everyone else wants to do about slackers, geographic teams, etc is fine with me.

My goals for FS this year are to get more points than last year, do some beerneuring, and maybe contribute a pointless prize. And have fun and meet people. And of course to impress all the people I know who do not think it is possible to ride a bike in the winter. And to convince my family that I am, indeed, insane.

Steve O
12-02-2015, 03:50 PM
No worries. I actually am a robot.

Oh, great! Now this shows up on the registration form. Guess I'm out.
10171

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 04:06 PM
Oh, great! Now this shows up on the registration form. Guess I'm out.
10171
You can always lie. It only stops stupid or extremely honest rebots. [emoji6]

Amalitza
12-02-2015, 04:41 PM
At the risk (ok, near certainty) of turning this 11 page thread into a 22 pager, can we confirm a few details that havenít been explicitly argued over yet, so that when the registration form is ready, there is good info to provide to people who havenít participated in the past and may not be entirely sure how this thing works?

Registration info:

1) Leaderboard authorization same link as last year?
2) Are we using BikeArlington Strava Club again to pull people in to the leaderboard? I vaguely remember hozn suggesting he might prefer doing a strictly Freezing Saddles strava club instead?

General game info:

3) Team size: teams of 9-10 people again?
4) Scoring: same as previous years? 10 points per day, one point per mile, one mile minimum for your daily 10?
5) Game runs 00:00:01am January 1 through 23:59:59 pm March 19. In order to for your ride be counted by the leaderboard app, be sure it doesnít start before midnight on December 31/January 1 or extend past midnight on March 19/20. Stop your GPS (or crop your ride?) if necessary if you happen to be riding through the cutoff time.
6) A Strava account is required and is used to pull rides and miles into the leaderboard. Manual entry is acceptable; GPS or smart phone devices not required.
7) Anything else anyone can think of that might need clarification?

Iím not going to update the sticky post with registration info at least until I have the answer to the first two. I think itís more, rather than less, confusing if I put only some of things people need to do and then later go change it to add more. Iím not so particular about the other stuff, and am fine with adding it later or having it in another post but itís probably a good idea to explicitly explain how the game works somewhereÖ

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 04:53 PM
The only one of these I care about is "A Strava account is required and is used to pull rides and miles into the leaderboard." The draft registration form asks people for their Strava numbers, and requires an entry before the form will be processed. If for some reason we're not using Strava, please let me know ASAP so that I can fix this question.


At the risk (ok, near certainty) of turning this 11 page thread into a 22 pager, can we confirm a few details that haven’t been explicitly argued over yet, so that when the registration form is ready, there is good info to provide to people who haven’t participated in the past and may not be entirely sure how this thing works?

Registration info:

1) Leaderboard authorization same link as last year?
2) Are we using BikeArlington Strava Club again to pull people in to the leaderboard? I vaguely remember hozn suggesting he might prefer doing a strictly Freezing Saddles strava club instead?

General game info:

3) Team size: teams of 9-10 people again?
4) Scoring: same as previous years? 10 points per day, one point per mile, one mile minimum for your daily 10?
5) Game runs 00:00:01am January 1 through 23:59:59 pm March 19. In order to for your ride be counted by the leaderboard app, be sure it doesn’t start before midnight on December 31/January 1 or extend past midnight on March 19/20. Stop your GPS (or crop your ride?) if necessary if you happen to be riding through the cutoff time.
6) A Strava account is required and is used to pull rides and miles into the leaderboard. Manual entry is acceptable; GPS or smart phone devices not required.
7) Anything else anyone can think of that might need clarification?

I’m not going to update the sticky post with registration info at least until I have the answer to the first two. I think it’s more, rather than less, confusing if I put only some of things people need to do and then later go change it to add more. I’m not so particular about the other stuff, and am fine with adding it later or having it in another post but it’s probably a good idea to explicitly explain how the game works somewhere…

jrenaut
12-02-2015, 04:55 PM
The only one of these I care about is "A Strava account is required and is used to pull rides and miles into the leaderboard." The draft registration form asks people for their Strava numbers, and requires an entry before the form will be processed. If for some reason we're not using Strava, please let me know ASAP so that I can fix this question.

We are definitely using Strava unless someone wants to rewrite the entire BAFS website.

sjclaeys
12-02-2015, 05:42 PM
If someone put in a lot of miles in last year's challenge, but plans not to put in nearly as many this year (for whatever reason), how is that person assigned to a team based on the information gathered by the form? The only reason I'm considering joining the slackers this year is that I'm not expecting to be able to put in a competitive effort when compared to my effort last year. As far as I can tell, if I were assigned to a non-slacker team, the handicapping system would then put that team at a disadvantage, since the assignment is based on last year's mileage. I just don't want to let anyone down, and I know how freakishly competitive people are around here (me included).

Does this mean that you won't be competing as vigorously for side bets, like those involving beer?

sjclaeys
12-02-2015, 05:44 PM
At the risk (ok, near certainty) of turning this 11 page thread into a 22 pager, can we confirm a few details that haven’t been explicitly argued over yet, so that when the registration form is ready, there is good info to provide to people who haven’t participated in the past and may not be entirely sure how this thing works?

Registration info:

1) Leaderboard authorization same link as last year?
2) Are we using BikeArlington Strava Club again to pull people in to the leaderboard? I vaguely remember hozn suggesting he might prefer doing a strictly Freezing Saddles strava club instead?

General game info:

3) Team size: teams of 9-10 people again?
4) Scoring: same as previous years? 10 points per day, one point per mile, one mile minimum for your daily 10?
5) Game runs 00:00:01am January 1 through 23:59:59 pm March 19. In order to for your ride be counted by the leaderboard app, be sure it doesn’t start before midnight on December 31/January 1 or extend past midnight on March 19/20. Stop your GPS (or crop your ride?) if necessary if you happen to be riding through the cutoff time.
6) A Strava account is required and is used to pull rides and miles into the leaderboard. Manual entry is acceptable; GPS or smart phone devices not required.
7) Anything else anyone can think of that might need clarification?

I’m not going to update the sticky post with registration info at least until I have the answer to the first two. I think it’s more, rather than less, confusing if I put only some of things people need to do and then later go change it to add more. I’m not so particular about the other stuff, and am fine with adding it later or having it in another post but it’s probably a good idea to explicitly explain how the game works somewhere…

Wasn't there a debate last year about whether e-bikes and now other electrically driven vehicles that occupy MUPs, bike lanes, etc. should be allowed?

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 05:47 PM
If someone put in a lot of miles in last year's challenge, but plans not to put in nearly as many this year (for whatever reason), how is that person assigned to a team based on the information gathered by the form? The only reason I'm considering joining the slackers this year is that I'm not expecting to be able to put in a competitive effort when compared to my effort last year. As far as I can tell, if I were assigned to a non-slacker team, the handicapping system would then put that team at a disadvantage, since the assignment is based on last year's mileage. I just don't want to let anyone down, and I know how freakishly competitive people are around here (me included).
I don't see this as being a big issue. First place, it should even out among the teams. There will be some on each team who ride more than last year and some who ride less. Second, once this year's rides start to be posted, last year's will disappear, so it's not like people can be shamed for doing less this year.

sjclaeys
12-02-2015, 06:01 PM
I personally have no objection to grandfathering in previous players who have since moved and still participate in the forum, although admittedly sooner or later someone's bound to move somewhere warm and then we'd have to deal with whether or not that's allowed. But I'm not sure why everything else is up for discussion and this is not...

I strongly agree on letting previous players who have the misfortune (or not) of not being in the DMV participate as full players.

hozn
12-02-2015, 06:23 PM
1)Leaderboard authorization same link as last year?
2)Are we using BikeArlington Strava Club again to pull people in to the leaderboard? I vaguely remember hozn suggesting he might prefer doing a strictly Freezing Saddles strava club instead?

(1) yes, it will be the same, but we have old data still. I will clear the database, though I may leave authorizations in there so folks don't need to reauth.

(2) good memory! Yeah, it was confusing to use the BA Strava club last year, so I vote we have a new "2016 BAFS" club this year and ask everyone to join that club (and stay joined). That can also be a non-forum way of making general competition announcements (club discussions), which seems helpful.

Amalitza
12-02-2015, 07:08 PM
Wasn't there a debate last year about whether e-bikes and now other electrically driven vehicles that occupy MUPs, bike lanes, etc. should be allowed?

I don't know. Maybe! Was there also a resolution to the debate?

Steve O
12-02-2015, 08:19 PM
Wasn't there a debate last year about whether e-bikes and now other electrically driven vehicles that occupy MUPs, bike lanes, etc. should be allowed?


Like ELFs?

Steve O
12-02-2015, 08:21 PM
At the risk (ok, near certainty) of turning this 11 page thread into a 22 pager,

You know, you can change your settings to 20 per page. I'm only on page 6.


You can also change them to put the most recent post first, so it appears at the top rather than the end.

sjclaeys
12-02-2015, 09:13 PM
Like ELFs?

That would be one type of electrically driven vehicles.

sjclaeys
12-02-2015, 09:14 PM
I don't know. Maybe! Was there also a resolution to the debate?

I don't think so, so maybe we still need to get to a consensus.

DismalScientist
12-02-2015, 09:21 PM
How about a 20 pound bag of dog food?

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 09:42 PM
I don't know. Maybe! Was there also a resolution to the debate?

My vote:

No ELF, because I really don't want that obnoxious guy who drives an ELF down bike trails in this competition.
Otherwise, e-assist bicycles are fine, so long as you still have to pedal the things. Because dasgeh is hauling enough in the way of children and stuff that I can only admire her getting out there, even with e-assist.

rcannon100
12-02-2015, 09:45 PM
I don't think so, so maybe we still need to get to a consensus.

eBikes have never been allowed. There was an exception once based on (a) the medical condition of (b) a core community member. Otherwise FS was designed as a bicycle challenge of physical enduranced and sportsmanship. While there has been a little confusion about this, based on the ebike debate sort of blurring into the FS debate - this is a bicycle challenge (human powered) and there was an exception once because well we like that person.

peterw_diy
12-02-2015, 09:54 PM
FS was designed as a bicycle challenge of physical enduranced and sportsmanship.

Does anybody have Bob's contact info? Because it looks like his forum account has been hacked by someone who thinks there's a point to BAFS...!

kwarkentien
12-02-2015, 09:55 PM
Well, if you signed up and used any Zip Code from Maryland, DC, or Virginia, I wouldn't tell! But since someone might notice, anyway, I'll leave it to the rest of this forum whether we have a consensus on the issue.

I vote that Consular should be allowed in at least as a Slacker or similar FS lurker.

And KelOnWheels too!

dkel
12-02-2015, 10:56 PM
Does this mean that you won't be competing as vigorously for side bets, like those involving beer?

I loved the beer challenge, and it was great for Rockford and me to set our sights on it and go all out...but, man, I am NOT doing that again! Seriously, I was spent by #BAFS last year! (But it might just have been a hangover. :p)

dkel
12-02-2015, 11:02 PM
I don't see this as being a big issue. First place, it should even out among the teams. There will be some on each team who ride more than last year and some who ride less. Second, once this year's rides start to be posted, last year's will disappear, so it's not like people can be shamed for doing less this year.

You're probably right, but I'm very competitive, despite all reason. It's a character flaw. So, it's difficult, because as much as the whole thing is for fun, it's also a competition. Also, some of the top level prizes lately have been totally rad! BikeArlington jersey?!? I had to pay $70 bucks for mine (or something)! That's like a real prize! How can I justify not busting it for something like that? At least if I join the slacker team, I'm out of the running before I start. (Still not decided on that, BTW.)

cvcalhoun
12-02-2015, 11:07 PM
You're probably right, but I'm very competitive, despite all reason. It's a character flaw. So, it's difficult, because as much as the whole thing is for fun, it's also a competition. Also, some of the top level prizes lately have been totally rad! BikeArlington jersey?!? I had to pay $70 bucks for mine (or something)! That's like a real prize! How can I justify not busting it for something like that? At least if I join the slacker team, I'm out of the running before I start. (Still not decided on that, BTW.)
Well, if it helps any, there won't actually be a slacker team this year. There will likely be a Bunch O' Slackers. However, they won't even be allowed to register on the regular form and will just have to slink off to join the Strava club after January 1.

BrŁnÝ Moore
12-02-2015, 11:27 PM
I loved the beer challenge, and it was great for Rockford and me to set our sights on it and go all out...but, man, I am NOT doing that again! Seriously, I was spent by #BAFS last year! (But it might just have been a hangover. :p)

Same. Here. By the end of it, I was looking at just how much I was spending on beer (seriously, it was cutting into my coffee budget) and hoping against hope that I was the only one hiding their beerneuring.

I'm a little sad that, by planning and running this coffee-oriented scavhunt I've been thinking about, I'm going to disqualify myself from participating in my one-man quest to overcaffeinate all y'alls.

cvcalhoun
12-03-2015, 12:15 AM
The registration form can be found here (http://freezingsaddles.x10host.com/). A post explaining the choices made in constructing the form, and what to do if you encounter a problem with the form, can be found here (http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?9632-Registration-for-Freezing-Saddles-2016-is-now-open!&p=129002).

You can continue discussing other aspects of FS 2016 for another 13 pages, but the form is done!

dasgeh
12-03-2015, 08:18 AM
eBikes have never been allowed. There was an exception once based on (a) the medical condition of (b) a core community member. Otherwise FS was designed as a bicycle challenge of physical enduranced and sportsmanship. While there has been a little confusion about this, based on the ebike debate sort of blurring into the FS debate - this is a bicycle challenge (human powered) and there was an exception once because well we like that person.

No. Ebikes have always been allowed. Just like NBC. I'm not the only one out on them.

I'm fine saying no ELFs, because they're too wide.

dasgeh
12-03-2015, 08:28 AM
No. Ebikes have always been allowed. Just like NBC. I'm not the only one out on them.

I'm fine saying no ELFs, because they're too wide.

Though I just remembered that Strava has created a new category "ebike ride" (or similar). Last I looked it wasn't easy to use, so I wouldn't use it, though it might get easier/others may use it. Would that mean that the code needs to be changed to look for both "bike rides" and "ebike rides"?

Sunyata
12-03-2015, 09:56 AM
So, as the assigner of teams (because you know, that gives me so much authority and all), I have a couple of things to say:

For @dkel's statement about not riding as much as last year: If you were in the top 24 mileage riders last year and your riding will be significantly reduced either send me a PM or put in the "ringer" section of the form what your approximate weekly mileage will be looking like. It would be awesome if you could provide me a reason, but I know some of them might be quite personal, so do not feel obligated. I think, as a group, we know each other well enough to trust that no one will be a sandbagger and do this without it being legit.

Also, for the whole e-bike discussion: If it is an electric assist bike, sure let them play (as they have been in previous years). They still have to pedal in the cold just like the rest of us. And some of them are even hauling around grumpy toddlers in the cold, too! :cool:

As for any "out of the area" folks that want to participate on a team: if the consensus is to let them play (if they are still active members of the forum community and participated in a previous year and do not live in say Florida, I say, go for it), we can have them put their previous zip code on the form.

That is all, other than to say that I am so ready for BAFS2016 that I wanted to feel the winter spirit early and forgot my gloves this morning! Oh, that headwind was brutal! I may put the Bar Mitts on for the ride in tomorrow. :-P

Amalitza
12-03-2015, 09:57 AM
(1) yes, it will be the same, but we have old data still. I will clear the database, though I may leave authorizations in there so folks don't need to reauth.

(2) good memory! Yeah, it was confusing to use the BA Strava club last year, so I vote we have a new "2016 BAFS" club this year and ask everyone to join that club (and stay joined). That can also be a non-forum way of making general competition announcements (club discussions), which seems helpful.


Done.
https://www.strava.com/clubs/170309

Vicegrip
12-03-2015, 12:37 PM
Do we have to use last years miles as a HP for returning participants? This might make people not want to return after a year or two. No one wants to let the team down by not at least making the handicap. I am thinking hard if I have the hours to better last years miles as I don't want to be a boat anchor for a team. Not saying we need to change anything just noting something that might influence returning players.

cvcalhoun
12-03-2015, 12:51 PM
Our previous method of dealing with this was to ask people what miles they had in the last 3 months of the year. This didn't work very well, because people either didn't know or lied.

We are really encouraging people to come back even if they won't have the same miles as last year. Presumably, those who will have fewer miles than last year will be randomly spread out among the teams, and will be balanced by those who have more. And no one will be able to see your miles from last year, so no one will be shamed for not keeping up.


Do we have to use last years miles as a HP for returning participants? This might make people not want to return after a year or two. No one wants to let the team down by not at least making the handicap. I am thinking hard if I have the hours to better last years miles as I don't want to be a boat anchor for a team. Not saying we need to change anything just noting something that might influence returning players.

cvcalhoun
12-03-2015, 12:55 PM
Can we please fix the Strava authorization form so that the page you get after submitting it directs to this year's registration form (http://freezingsaddles.x10host.com/), not last year's?
(1) yes, it will be the same, but we have old data still. I will clear the database, though I may leave authorizations in there so folks don't need to reauth.

(2) good memory! Yeah, it was confusing to use the BA Strava club last year, so I vote we have a new "2016 BAFS" club this year and ask everyone to join that club (and stay joined). That can also be a non-forum way of making general competition announcements (club discussions), which seems helpful.

dkel
12-03-2015, 02:12 PM
For @dkel's statement about not riding as much as last year: If you were in the top 24 mileage riders last year and your riding will be significantly reduced either send me a PM or put in the "ringer" section of the form what your approximate weekly mileage will be looking like. It would be awesome if you could provide me a reason, but I know some of them might be quite personal, so do not feel obligated. I think, as a group, we know each other well enough to trust that no one will be a sandbagger and do this without it being legit.

I was 26th on miles, but 23rd on overall points. I don't know what that means for your planning. I also still don't know what I'm going to do regarding Slackers...I'm starting to lean towards being on a team, but as someone coming back from an injury, I don't know whether I'll be riding 20 miles a week in January, or 60, or more, though I certainly won't top my performance from last year. Makes it difficult to know what's best for myself and my potential teammates, and even difficult to know what to put on the registration form.

dplasters
12-03-2015, 02:29 PM
I was 26th on miles, but 23rd on overall points. I don't know what that means for your planning. I also still don't know what I'm going to do regarding Slackers...I'm starting to lean towards being on a team, but as someone coming back from an injury, I don't know whether I'll be riding 20 miles a week in January, or 60, or more, though I certainly won't top my performance from last year. Makes it difficult to know what's best for myself and my potential teammates, and even difficult to know what to put on the registration form.

You can be a boat anchor on my team. I won't care. I gotta commiserate with someone about commuting into 15mph+ headwinds.

vvill
12-03-2015, 02:32 PM
I'm signed up, but I had to estimate my miles since I don't remember what I did last year, and the data isn't visible.

cvcalhoun
12-03-2015, 02:36 PM
Yeah, hozn cleared out the data. I've changed the link on the registration page to the archived version of the page so people can determine their miles. And I've fixed your registration.
I'm signed up, but I had to estimate my miles since I don't remember what I did last year, and the data isn't visible.

sjclaeys
12-03-2015, 02:48 PM
eBikes have never been allowed. There was an exception once based on (a) the medical condition of (b) a core community member. Otherwise FS was designed as a bicycle challenge of physical enduranced and sportsmanship. While there has been a little confusion about this, based on the ebike debate sort of blurring into the FS debate - this is a bicycle challenge (human powered) and there was an exception once because well we like that person.

In light of Bob's points, maybe riders of eBikes and other electrically assisted vehicles should be in the Bunch O' Slackers. That way they can participate but don't present on unfair advantage in the team vs. team aspect of FS.

Amalitza
12-03-2015, 03:30 PM
Yeah, hozn cleared out the data. I've changed the link on the registration page to the archived version of the page so people can determine their miles. And I've fixed your registration.

fyi, I just registered and the archived page link was perfectly sufficient.:o Just in case there was still any concern.

Mikey
12-11-2015, 10:35 AM
As for manual entries not working if 1.0 - A few years ago I entered 1.0 for a manual entry of a ride near my house. STRAVA converted to km then FS converted to miles for point allocation and it came in as 9.9999 miles. Hozn fixed it but if I ride a pre-measured ride around my house that is this one mile loop and I have to manual entry I put it in as 1.001 just to be sure.