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View Full Version : Lynn/Lee Lighted No Turn on Red



dasgeh
01-29-2015, 10:01 AM
So the sign is up at the Intersection of Doom (Lynn and WB Lee) -- it's a lighted no turn on red that is on (i.e. prohibits turns) while the leading pedestrian signal is on. I first saw it on MLK Day. They've been adjusting light timing since, and I'm told they're not done. I keep meaning to take video, but every time I go through there I think "eh, it's really cold and it will be warmer next time I come through..." The latter doesn't seem to have come true yet. :-P

Has anyone else noticed the sign? What have people noticed as far as compliance? Other thoughts?

I'll post a pic in a second.

dasgeh
01-29-2015, 10:09 AM
Hmmm... Somehow I only have a non-lighted picture. Anyway, it's the black box just to the left of the right-most traffic light.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/29/105db8a3a4e6568fe14b19bbcebb6615.jpg

ShawnoftheDread
01-29-2015, 10:18 AM
It should come on before the leading pedestrian signal rather than simultaneously.

baiskeli
01-29-2015, 10:29 AM
It should come on before the leading pedestrian signal rather than simultaneously.

Yes. Perhaps it could be on through the entire red cycle, which is a nice reminder for motorists to look at it.

dasgeh
01-29-2015, 10:38 AM
Yes. Perhaps it could be on through the entire red cycle, which is a nice reminder for motorists to look at it.

I think the reason we have this sign is that staff (I don't know exactly who or how pervasive) didn't want a full time no turn on red.

Steve O
01-29-2015, 01:57 PM
So the sign is up at the Intersection of Doom (Lynn and WB Lee) -- it's a lighted no turn on red that is on (i.e. prohibits turns) while the leading pedestrian signal is on. I first saw it on MLK Day. They've been adjusting light timing since, and I'm told they're not done. I keep meaning to take video, but every time I go through there I think "eh, it's really cold and it will be warmer next time I come through..." The latter doesn't seem to have come true yet. :-P

Has anyone else noticed the sign? What have people noticed as far as compliance? Other thoughts?

I'll post a pic in a second.

Yes I have noticed, and I also had the thought of taking a video with identical results.
I actually talked with Larry Marcus the other night about it. He and I met on the trail and commuted together for about 3 miles, a very positive serendipity.

I told him exactly what Dread says: it needs to come on several seconds prior to the LPI to help prevent the right-turn-on-red-creepers from making their turn exactly as it comes on. I would suggest a full 4-5 seconds prior to the LPI.

I haven't watched it long enough to know when it stops (I go; it's cold out there!). In my opinion it should stay on for the entire walk and countdown cycle, giving peds and cyclists a lot more comfort about crossing without conflict. It also needs to be on long enough to actually be noticed. If it's actually true that it's only on for the LPI, then I doubt most drivers have even noticed it.

I also worry about what exactly drivers think when it turns off. Do they understand that it is still necessary to yield or does the change from on to off embolden them to be more aggressive about turning right?

dasgeh
01-29-2015, 02:00 PM
Great points. I should add that it's actually a "no right turn" sign, with no limit to "on red"... (We'd been talking about that for so long, I was inexact)

scoot
01-29-2015, 04:00 PM
Does this sign only come on during the LPI (i.e. not lit while Lynn Street is green)? If so, it will almost certainly not be noticed by the drivers at the front of the line who are busy looking at Lynn Street traffic and then raring to go as soon as they see cars come to a stop. The ones behind may however be more apt to see it when it suddenly comes on (than they would have been to notice it were it lit the whole time).

dasgeh
01-29-2015, 04:56 PM
Does this sign only come on during the LPI (i.e. not lit while Lynn Street is green)? If so, it will almost certainly not be noticed by the drivers at the front of the line who are busy looking at Lynn Street traffic and then raring to go as soon as they see cars come to a stop. The ones behind may however be more apt to see it when it suddenly comes on (than they would have been to notice it were it lit the whole time).

Yes, this only comes on during the LPI. I'm hoping to get some of people's actual observations. I have seen cars stay stopped at the light when the LPI comes on even when there have been no cyclists/pedestrians are crossing, so I do think that some drivers see it.

Steve O
01-29-2015, 05:00 PM
Does this sign only come on during the LPI (i.e. not lit while Lynn Street is green)? If so, it will almost certainly not be noticed by the drivers at the front of the line who are busy looking at Lynn Street traffic and then raring to go as soon as they see cars come to a stop. The ones behind may however be more apt to see it when it suddenly comes on (than they would have been to notice it were it lit the whole time).

I just videotaped it and will upload a bit later.
Yes, the No-Right-Turn is on for a total of 4-5 seconds, just during the LPI. Then it turns off as soon as the light turns green.

Amazingly, you will see in the video, a car actually ran the No-Right-Turn signal during the first cycle I taped. Not encouraging.

mstone
01-29-2015, 05:01 PM
Amazingly, you will see in the video, a car actually ran the No-Right-Turn signal during the first cycle I taped. Not encouraging.

Obviously we should get rid of all highway funding, because scofflaw drivers.

ShawnoftheDread
01-29-2015, 07:02 PM
Perhaps they should have incorporated a red right arrow into the traffic signal rather than a separate sign.

vvill
01-30-2015, 07:02 PM
I always just cross here as if I'm jaywalking (jaybiking?), as if there's no green pedestrian light at all. I'm not sure having this sign is really going to help - the ability to go right on red at such an intersection is so ingrained in drivers. Though yeah maybe an incorporated red right arrow would help more.

scoot
01-30-2015, 09:21 PM
I don't pass through IoD often, but I did this evening. Not much activity, just myself and two pedestrians crossing, all of us westbound. I saw the new sign light up as the LPI began. The right-turning drivers did wait for all three of us to get out of the way (i.e. halfway across the intersection), but proceeded to violate the new sign before the expiration of LPI. Which I had no problem with, since there wasn't anyone else using the trail anyway.

As for the effectiveness of the new LED sign, I would guess very little. Maybe it will help when charging a driver if someone is hit during LPI. But it seems that nothing short of retractable barriers (retractable spike strips?) will reliably contain drivers at that intersection.

Steve O
01-30-2015, 11:16 PM
I just videotaped it and will upload a bit later.
Yes, the No-Right-Turn is on for a total of 4-5 seconds, just during the LPI. Then it turns off as soon as the light turns green.

Actually, the LPI and the new light are on for about 10 seconds.


http://youtu.be/99geSdRckMU

Steve O
01-30-2015, 11:17 PM
Amazingly, you will see in the video, a car actually ran the No-Right-Turn signal during the taping. Not encouraging.



http://youtu.be/yEf7_qAgoGM

scoot
01-31-2015, 10:19 AM
Thanks for the videos Steve.

The "No Turn on Red" doesn't light up at all until the walk signal comes on. It looks like the dead phase is 1.5 seconds, after a 4-second yellow signal for Lynn Street traffic.

At an absolute minimum, the sign should be lit during the all-red dead phase right before that so that the few people who do both notice it and care to adhere won't start to turn on red a half-second before the LPI anyway. Turning it on as Lynn Street goes from green to yellow would be better.

dasgeh
01-31-2015, 02:19 PM
Perhaps they should have incorporated a red right arrow into the traffic signal rather than a separate sign.
I don't think a dedicated turn signal allows for right on red ever - meaning they couldn't have a right on red while Lynn has green.

Not that I'm saying it's the right decision, just that there is a reason for not going that way

scoot
01-31-2015, 08:05 PM
I don't think a dedicated turn signal allows for right on red ever - meaning they couldn't have a right on red while Lynn has green.

Yes, that seems to be the reasoning.

But I do wonder how many of the LPI turners there even notice the new restriction. As in, how many of them noticed that the new traffic control signage and decided to turn anyway, vs. how many truly had no idea that their turn was illegal? After approaching a red, drivers generally don't have any reason to look at a signal again before turning right; they just need to make sure they're yielding to everyone. So this intersection now requires different behavior of drivers than any other intersection I can think of.

Somehow I doubt there is an effective way to poll these folks to find out.

dasgeh
01-31-2015, 08:19 PM
Yes, that seems to be the reasoning.

But I do wonder how many of the LPI turners there even notice the new restriction. As in, how many of them noticed that the new traffic control signage and decided to turn anyway, vs. how many truly had no idea that their turn was illegal? After approaching a red, drivers generally don't have any reason to look at a signal again before turning right; they just need to make sure they're yielding to everyone. So this intersection now requires different behavior of drivers than any other intersection I can think of.

Somehow I doubt there is an effective way to poll these folks to find out.
I completely agree with your logic here. And while not scientific, it would still be helpful to me to hear people's actual experiences with this sign - I.e. do those of us who go through there regularly see drivers turning when the sign is lit or not.

Fwiw, I generally go through there twice a day on weekdays. Probably 6-8 times out of 10, I've seen drivers stay stopped, and at least half of those have been when no pedestrians or cyclists were crossing. Of course, I was almost hit twice in one day last week - the first time I entered the intersection with the lpi, but the traffic got green just after I entered. The car in the far right lane lurched forward and came within inches of hitting me, but I yelled and she stopped. She was looking at me the whole time, so it was kinda inexplicable. The second was a cab who was clearly planning on turning red against the light (i had been waiting so was crossing at the beginning of the lpi), but I yelled and stared him down, so he stopped mid turn. He also didn't turn until he got green.

Starduster
02-01-2015, 10:12 AM
A thought on the signal array: Perhaps moving the [no right turn] sign to the right of the signal? Or adding a [green straight only] or a [red right arrow] signal light to the array? I hope someone from the traffic signal dept. will be at the ABAC meeting Monday. This is still a high risk crossing.

Regardless of how you mark it, there will always be a-h's who don't think the sign applies to them. Case in point- I was once stopped at a red light in Shirlington, plainly marked with a "No Turn On Red" sign. Motorist behind me was so obnoxious about wanting to turn that I said "screw it' and moved left. She went right against the light, and was promptly caught and pulled over by Arlington County Police. Ah, justice. Enjoyed discreetly.

Steve O
02-01-2015, 05:17 PM
Perhaps they should have incorporated a red right arrow into the traffic signal rather than a separate sign.

I don't think a dedicated turn signal allows for right on red ever - meaning they couldn't have a right on red while Lynn has green.

Not that I'm saying it's the right decision, just that there is a reason for not going that way

I think a red arrow is pretty well understood to mean you can't turn. One way to incorporate that into this situation would be to have the red arrow before and during the walk signal and then have it flashing yellow the rest of the time. That would indicate that you may turn right with caution, which is what right turners should be doing at all times anyway.
When they have red, they need to be cautious of cross traffic; when they have green, they need to be cautious of people in the crosswalk.

This is consistent with my experience in Spain a few years ago. Most crosswalks had a separate flashing yellow light to remind cars to watch for pedestrians.

mstone
02-01-2015, 10:41 PM
I think a red arrow is pretty well understood to mean you can't turn.

You'd be surprised; I've found that to not be as true as you might like to think. Apparently the red arrow interacts in a confusing fashion with the god-given right to turn right at any time.

Starduster
02-02-2015, 04:24 PM
You'd be surprised; I've found that to not be as true as you might like to think. Apparently the red arrow interacts in a confusing fashion with the god-given right to turn right at any time.

That [sigh] is more correctly "The god-given right to do what I want."