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ebubar
04-25-2013, 08:18 AM
Practical Details: I recently starting commuting (since February-ish) on a Trek 7.2 FX hybrid on an ~ 28 mile round trip commute.
Working up to full time commuting, but still pretty new to this whole world.

Wheels:
Formula alloy hubs w/Bontrager 750 32-hole alloy rims
Tires:
Bontrager H2 Hard-Case Lite w/puncture resistant belt, 700x35c

Last week I rode to work, left the bike in the office, went back to it after a full workday to ride home and found the tire was flat.
The weight of the bike had the tire resting flat on the ground so I had no problems just removing the whole thing from the rim,
removing the tube, putting in a new one, and reseating (I think...) the tire and pumping it back up. I checked both the tube and the tire
and couldn't find any evidence of a puncture (visually, audibly or touch-ably...). Figured the tube must have a slow leak and I just couldn't
find it.

Rode the roundtrip Monday-Wednesday without problems (other than weak legs :) ).

Woke up this morning, and was greeted by the same problem. Tube was completely flat, tire was basically unseated and will
have no problems removing it when I get home. Is this a normal occurrence with flat tires?

When I read about them, it seems I should have more difficulty removing my tire from the rim to replace the tube. It's really
very easy...no tire levers necessary.

Perhaps the tire itself is damaged in some way? Am I not reseating the bead correctly?
Any tips on what I should do or look for when I get home to change to a new tube tonight?
Am I just unlucky in my recent commuting?

1 flat in 500 miles I can accept. A second flat in just another 80 miles on this one tube seems sketchy to me and I'm thinking user error...

Subby
04-25-2013, 08:25 AM
Did you run your finger along the inside of the tire? I had a similar incident happen to me (new to commuting, multiple flats, etc.) and even though I visually inspected the outside of the tire, I missed a foreign object lodged in the inside.

You probably did, but just something to check.

When you pumped up your flat tubes did you have any luck figuring out from where the leak was coming?

jabberwocky
04-25-2013, 08:31 AM
Inspect the tire thoroughly. I've found that slow leaks are often caused by a piece of glass getting embedded in the tire. They can be difficult to find. Often they are almost impossible to feel just running your hand along the tire (inside and out); you need to actually pinch the tread and feel for hard bits in there.

Its good practice to note the position of the deflated tube when you remove it (valve and tube direction). If you can't find the puncture by sight, inflate it and stick it underwater in a full sink or a tub and find the leak. Then backtrack to the tire and figure out where the puncture happened.

Last, check the rim tape. If the spoke holes aren't completely covered, the metal of the rim can abrade the tube and cause slow leaks. When you find the leak in the tube, if it is on the inside of the tube this is almost certainly the issue.

baiskeli
04-25-2013, 08:37 AM
Yes, do everything Jabberwocky said first. The common denominator is the tire.

It could be the loose tire, I guess. But if it looks okay inflated and you're riding okay, I wonder how it would cause a problem.

Make sure your tubes are the right size for your tire. You could also be pinching the tube when it's inflated, and that could create a stress point. After I change a tube and seat the tire in the rim, I like to inflate it a bit so it's spread out evenly, then deflate it and squeeze the tire to get ride of any wrinkles or twists. If I'm at home, I often use baby powder spread on the tube to further prevent kinks and twists. Also make sure the valve is lined up nicely through the rim hole and isn't crooked, and make sure you hold it all the way out of the hole while you start to inflate so no rubber is pinched as the pushes it fully through the hole - the joint between valve and the rest of the tube is a common place for slow leaks.

Did you use the same brand of tube? Maybe there's a factory flaw, like a faulty valve or bad seal between valve and tube.

ebubar
04-25-2013, 05:07 PM
All right, home and inspecting the tire!

I found the likely culprit. The tire itself has a puncture in it. A tiny little sliver that must be allowing sharp little rocks in to puncture the poor little tube.
I inspected the outside of the tire, saw what might be a weird little sliver, lined it up with the now flat and removed tube and found my puncture.
Oddly, I can't do the same with the first punctured tube. Still have NO IDEA what the problem with that was. Can't find ANY leaks, even when lining things up all scientific-like. It looks a little silvery towards the bottom, so i'm wondering if there might be some pinching or something rubbing silvery material from the inside of the rim or something...checking the tape and tire interior for that next.

For now, where to go from here...
Can I patch this tire at its sliver for riding tomorrow?
Do I need to get a new set of tires?
If so, any recommendations?

I am looking to get a new cyclocross commuter, so I'm hesitant to spend too much on this bike as I'm planning to sell it towards said new curly handlebar commuter.

lancito brazofuerte
04-25-2013, 05:27 PM
Fist address the tire. Using an old shop rag or tshirt, run it inside the tire. Hopefully it won't snag on anything sharp. If no sharp stuff is in the tire check out the small puncture you referenced. Does it allow the tube to bubble out of it? when fully inflated, does the tire bulge? If no to both, keep riding it. A bit of added insurance is a sticky tire boot. Park Tool makes the nicest ones and can be had for almost free from any decent LBS.

One other thing to look for is the rim strip. Check to make sure it is aligned over the spoke holes in the rim and not off center or crooked at the valve hole. If your rim strip is kinda boogered, Hit up the LBS for some cloth rim tape. 2 rolls (both wheels) is usually around $8.

Next, using your rag/tshirt/wife's apron, run it along the inside of the rim. Hopefully you won't encounter any snags. It's very rare but I have seen come crazy bad rims from the factory.

If all is well, pull the trigger on some new tubes and make sure you air up accordingly.

If the puncture on the tire is more of a cut and bulges a bit when inflated, dump it and get a new one. Or two. I know my bike OCD would go all Rain Man if I has mismatched tires.

Hope this helps

ebubar
04-25-2013, 07:31 PM
Fist address the tire. Using an old shop rag or tshirt, run it inside the tire. Hopefully it won't snag on anything sharp. If no sharp stuff is in the tire check out the small puncture you referenced. Does it allow the tube to bubble out of it? when fully inflated, does the tire bulge? If no to both, keep riding it. A bit of added insurance is a sticky tire boot. Park Tool makes the nicest ones and can be had for almost free from any decent LBS.

One other thing to look for is the rim strip. Check to make sure it is aligned over the spoke holes in the rim and not off center or crooked at the valve hole. If your rim strip is kinda boogered, Hit up the LBS for some cloth rim tape. 2 rolls (both wheels) is usually around $8.

Next, using your rag/tshirt/wife's apron, run it along the inside of the rim. Hopefully you won't encounter any snags. It's very rare but I have seen come crazy bad rims from the factory.

If all is well, pull the trigger on some new tubes and make sure you air up accordingly.

If the puncture on the tire is more of a cut and bulges a bit when inflated, dump it and get a new one. Or two. I know my bike OCD would go all Rain Man if I has mismatched tires.

Hope this helps

Culprit looked to be a small piece of glass sticking in the tire. Puncture is perhaps 0.2-ish cm, so doesn't look like the tube is new tube bulging. Tire looks nice and non-bulgy. Spinning pretty good. Gonna leave it overnight and might try riding the 2 miles to metro tomorrow to test it out with more testing for the weekend.

Thanks for all the help to all of you! If I'm able to keep things working on this bike with your expert assistance perhaps I can convince myself i'll be able to maintain a nicer bike!

brendan
04-25-2013, 07:48 PM
If it's on the front wheel, a caution: I'm a bit more likely to trash a problematic tire if it's on the front wheel, simply because a blowout on the front wheel is much more dangerous than on the rear wheel.

If it's on the rear wheel and you do buy a new tire, move the older front tire to the back and put the new tire on the front.

A bit OCD on some maintenance issues due to some close calls (and volunteering to fix bikes for other people).

Brndan

jabberwocky
04-26-2013, 03:31 AM
Park makes a tire boot specifically to repair small cuts in tires.
http://www.parktool.com/product/emergency-tire-boot-tb-2

I generally junk road tires if they have bad tears in them, but a 2mm cut shouldn't be an issue. You just gotta be careful that not too many of the structural fibers were cut (since those are what holds the tire together). If it airs up and there is no bulge, you should be fine. You might want to put a boot inside the tire just in case (and to protect if anything gets caught in that cut in the future).

lancito brazofuerte
04-26-2013, 07:02 AM
Couple more bits of cheap insurance-

Use QTubes. They are the house brand of tubes from bike distro QBP. They come with removable valve cores and have a thicker bit of rubber around the base of the valve.
The removable valve core is key. Using a small pair of pliers (with some tape on the surface) unscrew the valve core and set it aside. Then you can add your favorite tire sealant. I prefer Stan's. Comes in a 2oz. bottle with a small enough tip to fit inside the valve. I typically use the whole bottle for a road tube up to about 44c. Once the sealant is in the tube reinstall the core and carry on normally. I recommend Stan's solely on the basis of reliability. Aside from deep sidewall on fishhook action, I've never had a flat while using it. Your mileage may vary.

I also typically throw out the little valve stem donuts that come on threaded valves. Too many times I've seen people crank those down till they pull the valve right out of the tube. If your valve is rattling a litle bit in your crabon aero wheelz, just wrap a very short length of electrical tape around the valve. Instant dampener.

I do the whole QTubes/Stan's rigamarole in my daily driver track bike for two reasons- In Florida everyone throws their empty beer bottles in the street. (I think it's a state law). And most of the time I'm too busy thinking about doing sw8 fixay skidz to remember to bring a seatbag with my flat kit.

baiskeli
04-26-2013, 07:45 AM
All right, home and inspecting the tire!

I found the likely culprit. The tire itself has a puncture in it. A tiny little sliver that must be allowing sharp little rocks in to puncture the poor little tube.

It wouldn't need to be little rocks. A tiny hole in the tire means the tire isn't holding back the pressure in the tube at that point, so it could cause a weak spot.


Can I patch this tire at its sliver for riding tomorrow?


Well, too late to answer - let us know what you did. I would have told you to put something in between the tire and tube. When this happens on the road, cyclists often use a folded up dollar bill between the tube and tire hole to get home.

baiskeli
04-26-2013, 07:47 AM
Park makes a tire boot specifically to repair small cuts in tires.
http://www.parktool.com/product/emergency-tire-boot-tb-2

That's cool. Never seen that. It seems to be meant for emergencies though, not a long-term solution.

jabberwocky
04-26-2013, 08:23 AM
That's cool. Never seen that. It seems to be meant for emergencies though, not a long-term solution.Yeah, but it works fine for small stuff. I've used them successfully many times on tires that were then ridden for thousands of miles. I've used industrial duct tape for the same thing as well.

Like I said, I don't mess with anything significant on a road tire. A 2mm cut is barely more than a puncture though. Its rare that a set of road tires on my bike doesn't have half a dozen little punctures and tears by the end of its life.

ebubar
04-26-2013, 09:22 AM
Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. I made it to the metro (~2 miles) without incident. I'm thinking i'll take the tire in to a LBS to get their opinions on long term rideability.
Might just need a Park boot (those are nifty looking, definitely picking some up for the flat-pack) if i'm lucky. I'm heartened to hear that they can work "longer term" for a small
little blemish like mine.
Also might try those tubes that I can fill with the sealant.
If I end up getting a new tire, any suggestions from the folks on here?

lancito brazofuerte
04-26-2013, 09:31 AM
Panaracer RiBMo PT. 700x32 or 35. Run you around $50 per. Hands down the best urban tire I've ever ridden. Folding bead, sticky in the wet, and super long lasting. They will also allow you to run a higher psi than most other "commuter" tires.

Panaracer Paselas (non TG) are typically $25-30 each if you can find them. These are my favorite "do everything" tire. Alleycats, crits, gravel grinding, barhopping... Plus tan sidewalls are Classy!
http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv107/hipsterdbag/DSCN2346_zps9ae6d2e8.jpg (http://s674.photobucket.com/user/hipsterdbag/media/DSCN2346_zps9ae6d2e8.jpg.html)

DismalScientist
04-26-2013, 09:59 AM
Panaracer RiBMo PT. 700x32 or 35. Run you around $50 per. Hands down the best urban tire I've ever ridden. Folding bead, sticky in the wet, and super long lasting. They will also allow you to run a higher psi than most other "commuter" tires.

Panaracer Paselas (non TG) are typically $25-30 each if you can find them. These are my favorite "do everything" tire. Alleycats, crits, gravel grinding, barhopping... Plus tan sidewalls are Classy!


Niagara cycle has Paselas for about $20 each. With TourGuard: about $25. RibMo: about $30.
I typically ride Paselas w/ TG.

lancito brazofuerte
04-26-2013, 10:15 AM
Niagara cycle has Paselas for about $20 each. With TourGuard: about $25. RibMo: about $30.
I typically ride Paselas w/ TG.

well there ya go. All hail the interweb discount!

I paid $25 each for my non tg paselas from my LBS. Still a killer deal

brendan
04-26-2013, 12:09 PM
Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. I made it to the metro (~2 miles) without incident. I'm thinking i'll take the tire in to a LBS to get their opinions on long term rideability. Might just need a Park boot (those are nifty looking, definitely picking some up for the flat-pack) if i'm lucky. I'm heartened to hear that they can work "longer term" for a small little blemish like mine. Also might try those tubes that I can fill with the sealant. If I end up getting a new tire, any suggestions from the folks on here?

More unsolicited advice. :)

I've run tire boots on hybrid and balloon tires until the end of life of the tires. I agree one should be treat them only as a temporary limp-home fix for more narrow tires. They're also have a noticeable effect on ride quality when you use them on narrow tires.

If you do use sealant *please* tell the staff at the bike store when you bring your bike in for work/maintenance. They'll probably look angry, but at least they've been forewarned to be careful not to get explosively slimed.

I'm a fan of kevlar-lined tires. Not kevlar bead (foldable) but kevlar lined for puncture protection.

While I'm babbling...

My in-the-field kit includes: topeak alien ii, a tire lever (technically redundant with the alien ii, but more comfortable), a glueless patch kit, one or two extra tubes, two tire boots, a couple cables (tandem length for the cargo bike), some housing ferrules and a few kmc quick links that fit the more common chain sizes. On the dummy i also keep all that in a waterproof box with some more touring type material. Well I did until it was stolen along with my bar mitts...and favorite hat and gloves. :/ Anyway, that box usually also contains: fiber fix spoke, temporary derailleur hanger, tiny lockring remover, zip ties, extra bolts and washers for loose accessories/racks, etc.

I bring the quick link because I've been known a) to pop the pin out when I'm pushing it by mistake and at that point it's nearly impossible (and definitely unwise) to try to push it back in and b) to crack the outer plate pushing a pin back through. With the quick link, just push the pin all the way out and discard it. Also, you can sometimes can use the quick link in such a way to decrease the loss of chain length when repairing a broken/damaged chain, depending on where it is broken/damaged.

The addition of tire boots and quick links to a pretty standard kit (tool, patch kit, lever, tube) would cover the vast majority of in-city commuter needs. The addition can prevent a required detour to the bike shop on the way to/from work. Assuming you ride with two brakes and two derailleurs, the more touring-ish stuff is nice but not really necessary...unless you're headed out of metro range. Which some commuters are...

Brendan

lancito brazofuerte
04-27-2013, 05:22 AM
Damn Brendan- That is a serious tool kit. But if I was riding a loaded cargo/touring bike every day, I'd more than likely carry one too.

One question for you though- If you've got a lockring tool for cassette removal, and can remove broken spokes on the side of the road, why not carry replacement spokes instead of the fiber fix ones? There is a large touring/rando population where I am and they all seem to carry a couple extra spokes.

Rod Smith
04-27-2013, 06:41 AM
Contrary to the experience of others, I've found the Park tire boot to be a temporary fix. The edge of the boot abraded the tube and caused it to leak within a couple hundred miles. Tires 700 x 28 inflated to 90psi. A dollar bill very neatly folded in thirds, then half (six ply) did the same but not nearly as quickly, being much thinner than the Park boot.

Spending three dollars plus on a set of three tire boots, is basically trading three good tire boots (that can also be used as money) for three boots of lesser quality. My two cents.

mstone
04-27-2013, 02:56 PM
One question for you though- If you've got a lockring tool for cassette removal, and can remove broken spokes on the side of the road, why not carry replacement spokes instead of the fiber fix ones? There is a large touring/rando population where I am and they all seem to carry a couple extra spokes.

I'd need four different metal spokes, or one fiber. On a long tour, it'd worth carrying the spares (even if you use a temp and go to a bike shop after, it could take days to get the proper replacement). In town, it's much less of an issue to use a spare, take the wheel to a shop, and ride n+1 while waiting for a part.

PotomacCyclist
05-08-2013, 12:21 AM
I finally experienced my first flat tire --- while riding on a Capital Bikeshare bike. I was riding on a road near a construction site. I heard a minor thud, something I always hear if I hit a small rock. It usually doesn't cause any problems. But the bike felt odd as I kept riding. Since this was CaBi, I was going pretty slowly, probably 6-8 mph. I stopped and checked the back tire. Flat. I walked it over to a light and looked for a cut. I couldn't see a cut. But then I saw the problem, a 1/2" screw that went straight into the tire. Oops.

The nearest station was only about 100 ft. away, so I walked over there, swapped bikes, pressed the red Repair button, turned the seat around to signal to other users that the bike was out of commission and continued on my way.

The funny thing about CaBi is that even with a flat, I could barely tell that anything was wrong at first. No swerving, no loss of control. But eventually, I could tell something was going on with the rear tire.

I guess this is why there are so few accidents on CaBi. Get a flat tire and there's no loss of control. I also read a comment online (or maybe on this forum) that the person saw someone riding CaBi in a bike lane. A car driver opened the car door suddenly, right into the CaBi rider. Because of the heavy weight, the slow speed and the low center of mass of the CaBi bike, the CaBi rider just bounced off the door lightly, didn't tip over and just kept going, almost as if nothing had happened.

Tide19
06-26-2013, 12:47 PM
Had my first flat two nights ago and learned an important lesson, always spend the time to be sure you've identified and removed the source of the flat.

The valve on my rear tire tube has been a little touchy for the last week or so. If I turned it all the way down, I would slowly loose air. If I kept the screw on the valve a half turn from full-tight, the valve wouldn't depress and release air. When I slowly lost tire pressure on Monday and couldn't see any visible signs of a rupture or cut in the tube, I assumed that the valve had been the cause.

I switched out the tube and did a check of the tire to make sure I didn't have anything coming through the tire, but when I inflated the tube, it immediately let the air back out. Luckily, a cyclist finishing up his ride stopped and offered me a lift in his truck. When I got home and got the tire all the way off the wheel in better light, I could see the tiny piece of glass that killed two separate tubes. If I'd been a little more thorough inspecting the tire, I would've had a success story with my first flat (with a big assist from Dickie via cellphone). Instead I had to finish my ride in the passenger seat of a truck.

KLizotte
06-26-2013, 01:05 PM
A couple of days ago I had my first flat in over a year (thanks Armadillos!); fortunately I was less than a mile from home. It was a slow leak. I couldn't find anything suggestive of the cause so I stuck the tube in a sinkful of water but didn't see any bubbles. Weird. I presumed it was a one off event possibly due to a stuck stem so I installed it back on the bike but it was flat 24 hours later.

I then took out a brand new tube from Conti (the box says 700x20-25c) and was shocked to find that it is way too big diameter-wise (I have 700c wheels with 25mm tires). I could wrap a rim and a half with it. What the heck?!

Fortunately I had another correctly sized tube but am confused as to what I accidentally purchased. I can't fathom what size rim the tube is designed for. What am I missing here? I need to buy some more tubes to keep as spares tonight.

3179

DismalScientist
06-26-2013, 01:11 PM
Looks like the right tube to me. Did they accidentally put a presta-valved pennyfarthing tube in the box by mistake?

KLizotte
06-26-2013, 01:16 PM
Looks like the right tube to me. Did they accidentally put a presta-valved pennyfarthing tube in the box by mistake?

I did wonder if there was a manufacturing mistake. I should have taken a pic of it hanging off the rim as it is easily a foot too long. I'm gonna bring it back to HTO tonight and hope they will allow me to change it (can't find the darn receipt). I'm peeved because they didn't have any cheapie tubes at the time and this was a pricey one. Glad I didn't discover this issue while far from home.

Dickie
06-26-2013, 01:28 PM
I usually find that new tubes initially appear too long (2"-4" of slack) as if they are stretched at the factory... although a foot of slack seems extreme. Try putting about 10 psi into the tube before you fit it into the tire to see if a little inflation removes some of the slack. This might seem counter-intuitive but it works more often than not and is considered a good practice. The added advantage to a little inflation is that the tube becomes much easier to handle and fills the tire void much nicer. Obviously you want to then let this pressure out as you begin the work the tire back onto the rim. The other possibility is simply a manufacturer mistake... although that seems unlikely.

Dickie
06-26-2013, 01:39 PM
Had my first flat two nights ago and learned an important lesson, always spend the time to be sure you've identified and removed the source of the flat.

The valve on my rear tire tube has been a little touchy for the last week or so. If I turned it all the way down, I would slowly loose air. If I kept the screw on the valve a half turn from full-tight, the valve wouldn't depress and release air. When I slowly lost tire pressure on Monday and couldn't see any visible signs of a rupture or cut in the tube, I assumed that the valve had been the cause.

I switched out the tube and did a check of the tire to make sure I didn't have anything coming through the tire, but when I inflated the tube, it immediately let the air back out. Luckily, a cyclist finishing up his ride stopped and offered me a lift in his truck. When I got home and got the tire all the way off the wheel in better light, I could see the tiny piece of glass that killed two separate tubes. If I'd been a little more thorough inspecting the tire, I would've had a success story with my first flat (with a big assist from Dickie via cellphone). Instead I had to finish my ride in the passenger seat of a truck.


You seem to be flying through your "rites of passage"... forgetting to clip out at a stop light, starting and finishing the same ride in the pouring rain, switching to bibs and never going back to shorts, and now flatting on an incline before dusk on a busy road.... and failing miserably... slow clap "Rudy".. well done!.

mstone
06-26-2013, 01:54 PM
There are pneumatic devices you can try if your tube is too droopy.

KLizotte
06-26-2013, 02:18 PM
I usually find that new tubes initially appear too long (2"-4" of slack) as if they are stretched at the factory... although a foot of slack seems extreme. Try putting about 10 psi into the tube before you fit it into the tire to see if a little inflation removes some of the slack. This might seem counter-intuitive but it works more often than not and is considered a good practice. The added advantage to a little inflation is that the tube becomes much easier to handle and fills the tire void much nicer. Obviously you want to then let this pressure out as you begin the work the tire back onto the rim. The other possibility is simply a manufacturer mistake... although that seems unlikely.

I inflated it a little as soon as I took it out of the box. I immediately noticed that there was too much material to fit in the tire so I hung it on the rim to see how much excess I had. Oiy! The other spare tube I had on hand was definitely much smaller and fit as expected (I don't remember the brand since I threw out the box long ago).

Could it being characterized as a "race" tube have something to do with it?

Rod Smith
06-26-2013, 05:17 PM
Strange. Continental is a brand that I'd pay an extra dollar for vs. a generic tube. Let us know what the shop says.

KLizotte
06-26-2013, 06:40 PM
Well the guy at HTO allowed me to swap the tube for another of the same kind and model without any fuss but he did indicate that he thought I was a tad crazy (he was clearly not inclined to test out my story however).

At home I immediately took out the new one to take a measure of it and it is within normal range. The other one was definitely too long. Never seen that before....

Dickie
06-27-2013, 08:59 AM
Since you lived in England I hope you told the the salesperson "You're bending my tubes , right?"... been trying to work that into this thread for a while! Glad the mystery was solved.

KLizotte
06-27-2013, 09:38 AM
I'm afraid that the entire time I lived in the Mother Country I never heard "bending my tubes".

Always loved "taking a mickey" though.

Cheers!

Dickie
06-27-2013, 09:47 AM
I'm afraid that the entire time I lived in the Mother Country I never heard "bending my tubes".

Always loved "taking a mickey" though.

Cheers!

My mum still uses "taking the Mick", it cracks me up every time... although I am certain the Irish have good reason to object to it's origins. "Bending my tubes" is used when you think someone is messing with you.... it derives from the old paper tickets for the Underground in London that wouldn't work in the machines if they got bent. e.g.."When I was asked to hand the plumber a glass hammer I figured he was bending my tubes!"

I also notice you use "pear shaped" often... possibly my favorite Britishism!

ShawnoftheDread
06-27-2013, 09:52 AM
I also notice you use "pear shaped" often... possibly my favorite Britishism!

Since getting hooked on Fresh Meat, I've become a fan of "boss-eyed."

Wife: I was talking to K yesterday...
Me: Who's that? The chick that's all boss-eyed?

KLizotte
06-27-2013, 09:53 AM
I need tea!

and cider!

and Branston pickle!

For the record, Marmite should be reported to the Geneva Convention for cruel and unusual punishment. Just sayin'....

dasgeh
06-27-2013, 09:56 AM
My brother, sister-in-law and their 14, 12 and 8 year olds live in London. I love the kid-related Brit speak (bum, cheeky, faffing, etc). We've completely integrated into our child-rearing philosophy.

Rod Smith
06-27-2013, 05:30 PM
Got everything you need? Pump? Patch kit?

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr147/Rod_Smith/DC_/DSC06755.jpg (http://s478.photobucket.com/user/Rod_Smith/media/DC_/DSC06755.jpg.html)