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dasgeh
04-16-2013, 12:37 PM
Dear bike shop owner

When a person calls you, having done a lot of research (including test rides) about a specific type of bike, of which you have little to no knowledge, but looking into the possibility of having your shop add on to that bike in a way that you are supposedly expert, don't disparage that type of bike in favor of complete bike builds you have in store. I was never going to buy the type of bike you stock, and now I'm not going to have you work on the bike I do buy. Or the other bike that I need to have fixed in the way you are supposedly expert.

(I know, not a missed connection, but a truly annoying experience).

Tim Kelley
04-16-2013, 12:42 PM
Dear bike shop owner

When a person calls you, having done a lot of research (including test rides) about a specific type of bike, of which you have little to no knowledge, but looking into the possibility of having your shop add on to that bike in a way that you are supposedly expert, don't disparage that type of bike in favor of complete bike builds you have in store. I was never going to buy the type of bike you stock, and now I'm not going to have you work on the bike I do buy. Or the other bike that I need to have fixed in the way you are supposedly expert.

(I know, not a missed connection, but a truly annoying experience).

You mean like switching out components or adding a rack or something along those lines? Can you give us a hint on which local shop this would be??

dasgeh
04-16-2013, 12:48 PM
You mean like switching out components or adding a rack or something along those lines? Can you give us a hint on which local shop this would be??

It was adding e-assist to a bakfiets. There's only one local shop that does e-assist, that I know of, so that should be a good hint.

On the topic of bakfiets, if anyone is seriously interested, the closest bike shop that carries them (in Brooklyn) is going to put in an order soon for delivery end of May/beginning of June. Having done a lot of research, this is the cheapest you can get a box bike (even with delivery). Combining delivery might save some $$. PM me.

83(b)
04-16-2013, 01:20 PM
Also on the topic of bakfiets! The Daily Rider on H Street stocks the Larry v. Harry Bullit and the Gazelle Cabby. And last I checked BicycleSPACE near the convention center has a couple of Christiana Trikes (and maybe another brand of bakfiets?).

And installing the electrics shouldn't be too difficult. Though I suppose a front hub-motor would need a longer run for the power and throttle connections. Mind if I ask what kind of build you're looking at? I've been pining over an electric Metrofiets (http://www.metrofiets.com/)for a long while now.

dasgeh
04-16-2013, 01:30 PM
We're almost definitely going with this: http://rollingorangebikes.com/cargobikes/bakfiets-nl/

I should call Daily Rider, though. I had heard they have box bikes, but they are silent about them on their website. Does anyone know how much they're selling for? At Rolling Orange the regular bakfiets is $2050 and the eassist is $3700. Even with shipping, that's significantly cheaper than I've seen other box bikes. Plus, bakfiets builds thousands of bikes per year for the Netherlands, so the quality is well know (and respected). And certified for use with kids.

Tim Kelley
04-16-2013, 01:34 PM
I wish I knew how to move these posts into their own thread under the family biking section...

83(b)
04-16-2013, 03:14 PM
I'm not sure what the Daily Rider is selling it's models for, but based on their prices for other stuff I suspect they're comparable.

Rolling Orange looks like a great dealer and their Bakfiets.nl offering seems like a nice turn-key solution. Though when the battery conks in a couple of years it would probably be much more cost effective to replace it with an off brand battery from a vendor like Ping. A 24 Volt 10 Amp replacement would only set you back about $200, compared to the $500-700 I've seen for stock replacements.

Congrats on the decision! I'm envious.

Meganomics
04-17-2013, 12:02 PM
I'm not sure what the Daily Rider is selling it's models for, but based on their prices for other stuff I suspect they're comparable.

Rolling Orange looks like a great dealer and their Bakfiets.nl offering seems like a nice turn-key solution. Though when the battery conks in a couple of years it would probably be much more cost effective to replace it with an off brand battery from a vendor like Ping. A 24 Volt 10 Amp replacement would only set you back about $200, compared to the $500-700 I've seen for stock replacements.


Hey all, thought I'd pitch in with some answers where I could.

BicycleSPACE stocks the Boxcycles Christiania, a cargo trike, which retails for around $2,700
The Daily Rider stocks the Gazelle Cabby--a lighter-weight bike in the Boxbike style--and I believe the price point is $2,700 - $2,800

Daily Rider also stocks the Larry vs. Harry Bullitt. The Bullitt is becoming a very popular boxbike in the U.S. because it is built on an aluminum frame and is therefore both lighter and faster than a traditional, wood-and-steel Dutch boxbike. They are also compatible with the BionX electric pedal-assist system. The Hum of the City family in San Francisco (Humofthecity.com) went on a cargo bike-seeking odyssey last year after selling their minivan, and after weeks of exhaustive testing, they settles on an electric-assist Bullitt to carry their two kids plus groceries up and down the hills of San Francisco. There are two downsides: (1), Larry vs. Harry is expensive (buying just the platform, no box or cover or anything, will get you close to the cost of a complete Bakfiets), and (2) they are built modularly, which means you'd have to order a box and raincover for your kids separately or have them custom built. Finally, they are built for taller people--starting at 5'6" or so. I tried riding one last year at the ABC's of Family Biking and just could. not. do. it. because the top tube standover height is several inches higher than my inseam (owie). All that being said, if you're not too short and are in the market for a true car replacement--and are budgeting accordingly--Lvs.H is a GREAT way to go and is really picking up steam among American cargo biking families.

The Daily Rider, along with the local Larry vs. Harry distributor (who is a total sweetheart!) will be exhibiting at The ABC's of Family Biking on 4/28.

FINALLY, Rolling Orange stocks one more bike that I really think you should take a look at, dasgeh and others: http://rollingorangebikes.com/urban-arrow-cargo-bike/ The Urban Arrow is the latest entry in the "modern electric boxbike" category and has been generating a lot of excitement among the American family biking community. Dena, who leads the growing Philadelphia Kidical Mass ride, just recently acquired an Urban Arrow and LOVES it (http://bikemamadelphia.blogspot.com/, Twitter @lachute). As does her toddler son, who apparently has been known to climb into the box an hour early just because he wants to ride it so much. :-) I haven't tried one in person, but looking at pictures, it appears to be more friendly to the vertically-challenged of us (ahem) than some of the other boxbike options.

I hope this helps! I'm looking forward to hearing how your choice goes. Are you planning to come to the ABC's of Family Biking next week? There will be Larry vs. Harry, Gazelle Cabby (hopefully), and I believe also a CETMA boxbike.

Good luck!

Megan

dasgeh
04-17-2013, 01:34 PM
I've done a lot of research about this, and here's what I've come up with:

Locally: (Bike shop - bike (notes) - price)
Daily Rider - Gazelle Cabby - $2800
Daily Rider - Bullitt (coaster brake in the rear, disk in front, unsure whether the box is included) - $3200
Daily Rider - Bullitt (disk in front & back, unsure whether the box is included) - $3600
Daily Rider - Babboe City-E - $4200
Daily Rider - Babboe City - $2500
Green Commuter - cetma (21 spd w mechanical disk brakes, no box)** - ~$3000
BicycleSpace - Christiania CB 2 Wheeler - ?

Green Commuter can convert bikes to e-assist, starting at $1450 ($1200 for kit + $250 for labor)

Not local -- add shipping. (So far the only firm price I've heard is $800 to get a box bike from NY to CA, but that's a good starting point)
Rolling Orange (http://rollingorangebikes.com/azor-bicycles/milano-cargo-bike/) - Bakfiets wo e-assist - $2050
Rolling Orange (http://rollingorangebikes.com/cargobikes/bakfiets-nl/) - Bakfiets w e-assist - $3750
Rolling Orange (http://rollingorangebikes.com/cargobikes/gazelle-cabby-cargo-bike/) - Gazelle Cabby - $2850
Rolling Orange (http://rollingorangebikes.com/urban-arrow-cargo-bike/) - Urban Arrow w e-assist and NuVinci - $4650
Metrofiets (http://www.metrofiets.com/build/#272_171-181-264-195-295-166-135-116-137-209)- Basic e-assist (no upgrades) - $6200
Clevercycles (http://clevercycles.com/blog/products/bicycles/family-cargo/bakfiets-nl-cargobike/)- bakfiets wo e-assist with NuVinci- $3410
Clevercycles (http://clevercycles.com/blog/products/bicycles/family-cargo/cetma-cargo-bike/)- cetma (no box) - $1850
Clevercycles (http://clevercycles.com/blog/products/bicycles/family-cargo/gazelle-cabby/)- Gazelle Cabby - $2800
Tom's Cargo Bikes (http://tomscargobikes.com/tomscargobikes.com/HOME.html)- Custom - $??? [Thanks jopamora]
JC Lind (Chicago) (http://www.jclindbikes.com/bikes/wallaroo) - Winther Wallaroo - $2750
JC Lind (Chicago) (http://www.jclindbikes.com/bikes/workcycles-bakfiets) - Workcycles bakfiets - $3200
Dutch Bike Co (Chicago or Seattle) (http://www.dutchbikeseattle.com/bicycles-for-sale/brands/bakfiets/bakfiets-cargobike-2009) - bakfiets wo e-assist - $3000
Splendid Cycles (http://www.splendidcycles.com/products/bullitt-cargo-bikes/) - Bullitts:lots of options - $3000 - $4500 (basic ebike) - $6000
Adeline Adeline (http://www.adelineadeline.com/bicycles/bakfiets.html) - bakfiets wo e-assist - $3200


A few notes:
-- I'm specifically looking for a box bike - there are other options that might be great for others, but I'm only looking at 2 wheelers that have a box-like thing in front
-- I'll add to this as I find other things. If you have a suggestion, please let me know and I'll add.
**Note: the owner of Green Commuter described the cetma differently than what I can find on the web, so it might be a different bike.


If you have other/more info, please let me know. I'm happy to keep updating this (check below for last update).

Thanks
Gillian

dasgeh
04-17-2013, 01:42 PM
Thanks, Meganomics. That's a lot of great information! The Urban Arrow looks drool worthy. I'm just not convinced NuVinci and drool-worthiness is worth $900 (those seem to be the differences between the bakfiets e-assist and the U.A.). I'm going to try to make the ABCs, but I'll be alone with both kids, coming straight from church, so no promises. We have a Weehoo if you need one to display. I can't get it there, so we'd have to arrange that.

83(b) - thanks for the tip. If you have more info and cheaper e-conversions, I'm all ears. Unfortunately, we're not going to do the work ourselves, so we'd need to have it installed. I'm not the biggest fan of the G.C. at this point, though I can't speak for their work on e-conversions.

I put all my research up there. As you can see, the rollingorange e-Bakfiets comes in at less than $4550 (depending on shipping; it'll probably be less). It might be possible to install an e-assist on a cargo bike locally for a little less, but probably not. Plus, I know and trust the Bakfiets brand for moving little ones around.

That's where I am now. I welcome thoughts, though.

dasgeh
04-17-2013, 01:57 PM
And here are some reviews I've looked at for various box bikes:

Urban Arrow: http://bikemamadelphia.blogspot.com/2013/03/our-box-bike-search-begins-testing.html

Bakfiets: http://dutchcargobike.com.au/2011/04/review-electrical-bakfiets/

kyleg
04-17-2013, 02:48 PM
I've recently completed a box bike shopping adventure, so I thought I'd share a few things I've learned so far.

I'd ridden a rented bakfiets.nl a few times in the past and was highly impressed with it. When the time came to purchase a kid transporter, the bakfiets.nl was the gold standard. But I wanted to perform due diligence and try all of the long john/box-in-front bikes available to me in the current market.

Christiania (*not a long john, but still box-in-front): It was surprisingly easy to tip the three-wheeled bike without carrying anything in the box. Obviously, this would be less of a problem with a child providing weight up front, but still a scary thought. I could imagine a trike being a good solution for short, local trips at low speeds.

Larry vs. Harry Bullitt: Like others mentioned, I just. could. not. ride. it. I've had stints with road racing and mountain biking in the past, but I just couldn't get comfortable with the steering and braking of the L vs. H. I think it certainly fills a niche, but it's probably more for cargo transport than child transport... and that's what most of their promotional material seems to imply anyway. I wouldn't mind having a fleet of these if I owned an urban delivery company.

Gazelle Cabby: The ride was upright and comfortable - like a Dutch bike should be - and the steering was responsive without being awkward. It rode very much like the bakfiets.nl - perhaps a little faster and jauntier. My two concerns were that it is (I believe) made of aluminum and the sides of the "box" are fabric. Yes, there's a "roll bar" that holds up the fabric, but if it came down to a choice between a bakfiets.nl and a Cabby I would prefer to carry my child in a concrete-impregnated wooden box. On the plus side, the fold up sides and roll bar allow the bike to be squeezed through narrow doorways, etc. Aluminum scares me on a bike that is probably going to take a lot of abuse.

bakfiets.nl/Workcycles Cargo Bike: Most recently, I test rode (for a total of three experiences) the bakfiets at Adeline Adeline in Manhattan. The design has been slightly changed since I first rode a bakfiets in 2008. The primary difference is that the seat angle is even more relaxed now (by about 9 degrees). This makes the bike feel a little more like a recumbent and may irk some people, but in my opinion it wasn't too relaxed. Otherwise, balancing is simple and the steering (like the Cabby) is very easy - it just takes a minute to get used to it. It can take a lot of spinning to get moving, but once the bike is up to 10-15 mph, it just keeps going.

I decided to go with the bakfiets.nl and crunched the numbers. Ordering from Adeline Adeline, Clever Cycles, or any other American shop outside of DC would entail shipping charges in the ~$500 range. In the end, I went directly to WorkCycles, which is the Amsterdam shop that exports bakfiets.nl bikes to the US under the WorkCycles Cargo Bike moniker. Modifications for the US market and shipping from NL will cost 800 Euros, which is admittedly steep. But the list price for buying the bike from NL was significantly cheaper, which more than offset the higher retail price and shipping cost from an American dealer. I'd prefer to buy from an LBS, but the cost savings and hassles were too significant to ignore for the bike I wanted. In the end, I won't pay the 20% Dutch VAT, but I will pay an 11% import duty when it comes through customs.

If you have access to a large car/van and the time/interest to drive to New York to pick up a bakfiets, it could be cheaper to buy from Adeline Adeline than to have one shipped from NL, but we wanted to avoid the hassle of pickup.

Sadly, the bike won't arrive in time for the ABC's, but I'd be glad to share advice with anyone who might be considering a Dutch bakfiets.

Tim Kelley
04-17-2013, 02:58 PM
Thanks for sharing, everyone!

I'm actually glad to hear that Bullitt works better for taller riders. Being 6'6'', the stock Bullitt seemed just about right if I got a seat post with a longer minimum insertion. And I'm not as interested in the e-assist, so the lighter weight and performance orientation sounds good to me too.

dasgeh
04-17-2013, 03:01 PM
Thanks, kyleg. That's some great information.

Quick question: Did you consider Rolling Orange? I didn't see them in your write up. They import directly from bakfiets.nl and their prices seem much better than the workcycles importers (like Adeline Adeline)

kyleg
04-17-2013, 03:41 PM
Dasgeh, glad I could help. I looked at Rolling Orange and almost stopped by on a recent trip to Brooklyn, but never made it to the store and it wasn't clear to me at the time whether they carried bakfiets.nl or just mentioned it on their website. If it's true that they carry the bakfiets.nl for a price in the $2,000s, then I'm about to get buyer's remorse. As long as it's the real deal (bakfiets.nl's Van Andel design licensed to Azor for manufacturing) then that sounds like it could be a great deal. As I understand it, the modifications that Workcycles makes for US export is to add beefier brakes and the Nexus 8 hub. Most bakfiets sold in NL only have 3 speeds, I believe.

I'm also having Workcycles install their version of the infant car seat holder.

jopamora
04-17-2013, 03:51 PM
Thanks for sharing, everyone!

I'm actually glad to hear that Bullitt works better for taller riders. Being 6'6'', the stock Bullitt seemed just about right if I got a seat post with a longer minimum insertion. And I'm not as interested in the e-assist, so the lighter weight and performance orientation sounds good to me too.

Perfect timing, just read the Phoenix Bikes newsletter about their bike show

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8100/8656835888_69bcc533f2_z_d.jpg

dasgeh
04-17-2013, 03:53 PM
Thanks Kyleg. I'm pretty sure it's the real deal bakfiets.nl. They offer all of the options in the bakfiets.nl catalog, but they aren't sure what options are possible to get in time for their next shipment to the US (R.O. orders and has a big shipment shipped to their store in Brooklyn, then they'll ship down here). Their "stock" model is the 7 spd option with the Rollerbrakes. I'm hoping to upgrade to 8 speeds and the hydraulic V brakes. Bakfiets is introducing a NuVinci option, but not in time for this shipment. They're totally out of bakfiets (e- and not) at the moment, so the soonest you can get one from them is end of May/early June.

I take it you've ordered from workcycles already. When do you expect yours? Does workcycles have an adapter that works with a Graco car seat?

kyleg
04-17-2013, 04:13 PM
Yeah, we placed our order about two weeks ago and expect delivery in June. I'd be interested to hear how things go with Rolling Orange if you go that route. It does seem to be the real deal.

Workcycle's car seat adapter is pretty simple and meant to be universal... it's essentially an extra wood floor plate (maybe 2'x2') bolted to the box with two nylon (seatbelt) straps that loop over the point where the carrying handle meets the body of the carseat. There's also a 2-3" thick weatherproofed piece of foam to help level the carseat and provide extra protection against vibration. We plan to use it with a Chicco Keyfit. They guarantee that it will work with a Maxi-Cosi Mico, since that seems to be the odds-on favorite carseat in Amsterdam.

The Steco Baby Me carrier offered by bakfiets.nl looks like it could be a good solution, too. (In a bakfiets... NOT on the back of a rear rack as shown on their website!)

jopamora
04-17-2013, 04:21 PM
Seems like box bike maintenance would be like any other bike, right? Would you take it to The Daily Rider or BicycleSpace for bigger jobs or your favorite LBS?

Tim Kelley
04-17-2013, 04:22 PM
Seems like box bike maintenance would be like any other bike, right? Would you take it to The Daily Rider or BicycleSpace for bigger jobs or your favorite LBS?

It's for this reason that I'd love to see an Arlington shop carry cargo bikes...

kyleg
04-17-2013, 04:53 PM
Seems like box bike maintenance would be like any other bike, right? Would you take it to The Daily Rider or BicycleSpace for bigger jobs or your favorite LBS?

Maintenance should be pretty straightforward and could be handled by your LBS. The only mechanical difference from a typical bike is the steering linkage and the only moving parts to it are a ball joint and a pin. Of course, there are two head tubes - one for the handlebar and one for the fork - but they're both based on traditional designs. The big issue would be whether the LBS has the proper workspace. Workcycles uses a pulley system to hoist bakfietsen toward the ceiling vs. clamping them to traditional workstands.

dasgeh
04-17-2013, 05:02 PM
It's for this reason that I'd love to see an Arlington shop carry cargo bikes...

In my dream world, big wheel bikes in Lyon Village Shopping Center would be replaced by a LBS like Rolling Orange focused on commuters and family bikes.

Meganomics
04-17-2013, 05:02 PM
I've recently completed a box bike shopping adventure, so I thought I'd share a few things I've learned so far.

Sadly, the bike won't arrive in time for the ABC's, but I'd be glad to share advice with anyone who might be considering a Dutch bakfiets.

Kyleg, I would LOVE for you to come to the ABC's of Family Biking and hang with the Show & Tell to discuss your experience trying out various bakfiets-style bikes. We can make you a special sign and hang it around your neck or something. :-)

Meganomics
04-17-2013, 05:06 PM
In my dream world, big wheel bikes in Lyon Village Shopping Center would be replaced by a LBS like Rolling Orange focused on commuters and family bikes.

Did you listen to the webinar last week, dasgeh? I specifically mentioned DC's lack of a Clever Cycles-type store. BicycleSPACE and The Daily Rider are great, but their store footprints are just too small to accommodate the sheer size and variety of a good family bike selection. While I'd love to see such a shop open in DC for purely selfish reasons, maybe NoVA or MD is a better choice for the kind of space that Clever Cycles II would need. ;-)

If you haven't listened to it, I highly recommend the webinar, especially the first part where the co-owner of Clever Cycles shares her thoughts on family bike shopping: http://blog.bikeleague.org/blog/2013/04/webinar-recording-getting-moms-and-families-on-bikes/

dasgeh
04-17-2013, 05:10 PM
Did you listen to the webinar last week, dasgeh?

I did, Meganomics. While listening, the family bike thread was born... :-)

And yes, I agree with you. The DC area is ripe for a Clever Cycles.

Meganomics
04-17-2013, 05:20 PM
I did, Meganomics. While listening, the family bike thread was born... :-)

Oh my. Well, let me just say now I HAD NO IDEA I WAS TALKING FOR SO LONG. I just wanted to share All The Information. :-P

kyleg
04-17-2013, 05:25 PM
Kyleg, I would LOVE for you to come to the ABC's of Family Biking and hang with the Show & Tell to discuss your experience trying out various bakfiets-style bikes. We can make you a special sign and hang it around your neck or something. :-)

We're planning to come on the early side, maybe 11-noon. I'd be glad to learn and share. Just don't make it a "kick me" sign, please. ;)

jopamora
04-17-2013, 08:39 PM
Are their any welders on the Forum? Just need to introduce them to Dickie and we'll have a local bakfiet up and running! Maybe bring one of the bike co-ops in on it?

dasgeh
04-18-2013, 10:05 AM
Hey Tim, can we change the name of this thread to "Let's Talk About Box, Baby"

dasgeh
04-18-2013, 02:12 PM
I'm waiting on confirmation on what I could order from Rolling Orange. And I'm impatient. So I looked up the Madsen (It's the box-in-the-back box bike. I believe the only mass-produced one out there). Lots of people seem to like putting e-assist on these babies

Prices: Madsen site (http://shop.madsencycles.com/collections/2013-bikes): 1550-1850 depending on color
Looks like REI (http://www.rei.com/product/840060/madsen-bucket-cargo-bike-2013)has/had it ?!?!?!

Reviews: http://humofthecity.com/2012/08/22/we-tried-it-madsen/
http://carfreedays.com/2009/05/04/ten-days-with-the-madsen-kg271-bucket-bike/
http://totcycle.com/blog/2011-madsen-cargo-bike-review.html

83(b)
04-18-2013, 05:49 PM
Taking another look at the electric system that comes with the Rolling Orange model, it has some pros and cons.

Pro:

Fully installed and no questions re: compatibility. Since most bakfiets use rollerbrakes, it's a bit hard to find a hubmotor that matches.
Peace of mind. You know it's a setup that the manufacturer approves of. Seems much more valuable when hauling precious cargo rather than groceries.


Con:

24 Volt / 180 Watt system isn't terribly powerful. Will probably only assist to around 10 mph and might be underpowered for any major hills or heavier loads.
The $1,700 price difference would purchase a significantly better aftermarket system. But you'd have to navigate compatibility and installation. Becomes pretty easy if you're opting for a model with brake bosses on the front fork.
While I wouldn't want to overpower a bakfiets, I think a 36 Volt 500 Watt motor would offer much more torque and, if you felt the need, could be speed limited with a Cycle Analyst below the 20 mph it would otherwise top out at.
Small battery. The 10 Amp battery is going to drain pretty quickly, even on a lower-power system. I suspect you'd struggle to get 20 miles per charge.


In terms of good vendors, ebikes.ca (http://www.ebikes.ca/) and Emissions Free (http://www.emissions-free.com/store/) have been endorsed by forum members. If anyone wants to chat offline about doing an ebike conversion, just shoot me a PM.

ronwalf
04-19-2013, 11:11 AM
(I know, not a missed connection, but a truly annoying experience).

Ah, the memories! A few years back at anonymous local bike shop,
Me: I'm looking for a touring bike for commuting in, say, the $X price range
Clerk: <points to carbon cross bike (w/ no rack bosses!) in the $2X price range
Me: Maybe something along the lines of a Surly LHT?
Clerk: What? Surly's are the Pintos of touring bikes - they use straight gauge tubing! (???!)

Oh dear, oh dear. Let's count the ways he didn't make a sale:
1) Demonstrate an odd concept of what makes a touring bike
2) Not catch my price range
3) Miss that I was looking for an entry level touring bike
4) Lie about a competing bike's specs
5) On top of that, I liked the family Pinto!

dasgeh
04-19-2013, 10:10 PM
If anyone is considering the Babboe, you should probably read the discussion in the comments here: http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/2008/07/11/roundup-reviews-of-various-family-transport-bikes/

(take away, babboe is the ikea of box bikes)

dasgeh
04-22-2013, 04:32 PM
Just found out Christiania (famous for trikes) has a 2 wheeler. BicycleSpace is a Christiania dealer. So I've asked about price and timing.

In the mean time, Here's a review: http://christiania2wheeler.wordpress.com/post-purchase-review/

dasgeh
04-22-2013, 04:35 PM
So I just heard that Daily Rider can get the Babboe City-E for $1700 in a week. That's an e-assist cargo bike for under $2000. I'm floored. But the reviews (and price, honestly) give me pause.

Opinions? Is it really just too good to be true?

** EDIT: Ok, it looks like it's just the e-kit they can get for $1700. The bike is $2500. So the ebike would be $4200. Yes, some things are too good to be true.

83(b)
04-22-2013, 05:11 PM
Wow! That does seem like a great price, and the 36V/250W electrics are a step up from whats offered on the Bakfiets.nl. But the bad reviews you've pointed out elsewhere would still give me pause. Has the shop sold any to vouch for the mfg quality?

Still, compared to some of the people in that discussion thread, I'd be comforted a bit by buying through a reputable local shop.

jopamora
05-07-2013, 11:07 AM
I like the look of this one (http://www.wicycle.com/super%20box%20bike.php). Not keen on the drive train.

dasgeh
07-05-2013, 02:38 PM
So we bought the bakfiets.nl (with eAssist - with the better brakes and battery) from Rolling Orange. Got it Wednesday. Took it out yesterday and today accompanying me on my commute.

Riding along
3235

Classic Arlington view
3236

Trying to channel my inner Dirt
3234

Tim Kelley
07-05-2013, 02:52 PM
Hurry up and start a review thread of its own so we can ask questions!

jopamora
07-05-2013, 02:56 PM
Did you get a rain cover? I have that Germany shirt too!

dasgeh
07-05-2013, 03:21 PM
Hurry up and start a review thread of its own so we can ask questions!

Give me the weekend it ride it ;-)

Or you could come out TOMORROW for the Tour de Kidical (9:30am Quincy Park - kidicialmassarl.blogspot.com) to see it in action.

dasgeh
07-05-2013, 03:22 PM
Did you get a rain cover? I have that Germany shirt too!

Yes! We got the orange one. It's pretty awesome, though it may get a bit warm in there.

Did you go to the Germany-US game? Not that it was the place to be wearing a Germany jersey.

jopamora
07-05-2013, 04:49 PM
Short answer - I didn't go to the game.
Long answer - I knew it was coming up and finally made the connection that it was at RFK a week before it. Ticket prices were kinda silly and it was an exhibition game. Plus Germany wasn't going to have their full team with the Bundesliga guys playing in multiple Championships.

dasgeh
08-23-2013, 10:37 AM
I need to write a review of our totally awesome bakfiets.nl (with e-assist and a few upgrades) purchased from Rolling Orange this super. Short version: we LOVE it. And the e-assist and battery have turned out to be much better than we expected. The limiting factor our trips has been our kids' non-nap windows, not in any way the bike.

But until I do a full write up, here's a great review of a non-e-bakfiets from Boston: http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2013/06/workcycles-bakfiets-long.html
Most of what she writes I find spot on. I'd only add that the e-assist changes the answer from "not the best bike for hills" to "this thing can go wherever".

jinomas
09-02-2013, 07:08 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts or experience on the CETMA cargo bike?

dasgeh
09-03-2013, 09:45 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts or experience on the CETMA cargo bike?

[I think you're new here, and if so] Welcome! Great to have more family bike fans. Or cargo bike fans.

My only experience with cetma is that Green Commuter said they could get one when I was shopping last Spring. Unfortunately, the guy I spoke with at the g.c. was particularly unhelpful with respect to family bikes. He kept spouting "facts" that weren't true. For example, he said bakfiets/workcycles were pos's that were made in China (they're not -- they're tried and tried machines made in Holland). He described the cetma as a great family bike, but when I looked online, I could only find info on cetma being a cargo-oriented bike, without an established record hauling kids.

I would love to be wrong here, because more family-bike dealers in the area is good for us.

And you should come to a Kidical Mass Arlington (kidicalmassarl.blogspot.com)ride. Lots of different family bike set ups.

FFX_Hinterlands
09-03-2013, 09:53 AM
[I think you're new here, and if so] Welcome! Great to have more family bike fans. Or cargo bike fans.

My only experience with cetma is that Green Commuter said they could get one when I was shopping last Spring. Unfortunately, the guy I spoke with at the g.c. was particularly unhelpful with respect to family bikes. He kept spouting "facts" that weren't true. For example, he said bakfiets/workcycles were pos's that were made in China (they're not -- they're tried and tried machines made in Holland). He described the cetma as a great family bike, but when I looked online, I could only find info on cetma being a cargo-oriented bike, without an established record hauling kids.

I would love to be wrong here, because more family-bike dealers in the area is good for us.

And you should come to a Kidical Mass Arlington (kidicalmassarl.blogspot.com)ride. Lots of different family bike set ups.

Um, I'm pretty sure that Workcycles frames are made in China (except Kruisframe bike). They are assembled in NL.

baiskeli
09-03-2013, 10:14 AM
Um, I'm pretty sure that Workcycles frames are made in China (except Kruisframe bike). They are assembled in NL.

Everything is ultimately made in China. This forum was made in China. This post was made in China and then I assembled it here.

jopamora
09-03-2013, 10:34 AM
Everything is ultimately made in China. This forum was made in China. This post was made in China and then I assembled it here.

What about the guy who hand welds frames in his garage in Portland, OR? Is he full of it? And don't forget about the aluminum frames made in Taiwan! Someone needs to start up a cargo bike frame free trade sourced boutique sticker program. We are talking about coffee right?

ShawnoftheDread
09-03-2013, 10:36 AM
What about the guy who hand welds frames in his garage in Portland, OR? Is he full of it? And don't forget about the aluminum frames made in Taiwan! Someone needs to start up a cargo bike frame free trade sourced boutique sticker program. We are talking about coffee right?

He probably uses Chinese frame tubes.

americancyclo
09-03-2013, 11:13 AM
from: http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/workcycles-faqs-overviews/faq-about-workcycles/

Where are WorkCycles bikes made?
Almost all of our bikes are assembled in one of two factories in the Netherlands. Coating and painting is performed by coaters in Belgium and the Netherlands. Depending on the model bike our frames are made in the Netherlands, Belgium, Taiwan and China. Contrary to what some would like to believe the Taiwanese frames tend to be the highest quality, then the Chinese and then the Dutch and Belgian frames. But really, they’re all good frames.

Like most modern products the components come from all over the world, with a considerable European content. It varies per model but here are some examples…
Netherlands: rims, carriers, saddles, chain-cases, fenders and stays, headlamps, taillamps, locks
Italy: fenders and stays, saddles, brake levers
Belgium: spokes
Germany: taillamps

Finland: grips
Slovakia: crank bearings
Singapore: hubs, roller-brakes, shifters
Taiwan: seat posts, headsets, chains, pedals
China: handlebars, cranks
Indonesia: tires
Some other bicycle manufacturers claim to be entirely “European made”. It is theoretically possible to build a city or utility bicycle entirely from European sourced components but not practical to do so. It would either be extraordinarily expensive or require major compromises in quality and practicality. For example: the only option for the rear hub and brakes would either a 14 speed Rohloff hub with high-end hydraulic rim brakes, or the famously unreliable Velosteel single-speed coaster brake. I’m not aware of any European made drive chains or pedals, Nokian in Finland is the only remaining maker of quality city bike tires in Europe etc etc. In other words those who claim to be 100% European are either building esoteric, high-end bicycles for recreational use… or not being honest.

dasgeh
09-03-2013, 01:29 PM
Online, there are tons of reviews of pos cargo bikes "made in China". Guy from Green Commuter told me that the bakfiets was the same. That is not true. The bakfiets is "built" in the Netherlands. And guy from the Green Commuter shouldn't be cast bikes he doesn't sell in a negative light with misinformation.

Better?

americancyclo
09-03-2013, 02:10 PM
It seems that the retailer should not have been grouping the bike's attributes of "POS" and "Made in China" in the same bucket, while they may appear together, they can also appear individually.

Also, I'm really just answering my own curiosity with that post about the country of origin of the bicycle and parts.

jabberwocky
09-03-2013, 02:21 PM
The days where everything bike-related out of China was junk are long past. Chinese factories are perfectly capable of making excellent quality bikes and parts. They are also perfectly capable of making cheap junk, if thats all you want to pay for.

I mean, c'mon. Most of our consumer electronics come out of China these days. You think a bike is a complicate thing to make compared to, say, an iPhone?

jinomas
09-03-2013, 09:26 PM
[I think you're new here, and if so] Welcome! Great to have more family bike fans. Or cargo bike fans.

My only experience with cetma is that Green Commuter said they could get one when I was shopping last Spring. Unfortunately, the guy I spoke with at the g.c. was particularly unhelpful with respect to family bikes. He kept spouting "facts" that weren't true. For example, he said bakfiets/workcycles were pos's that were made in China (they're not -- they're tried and tried machines made in Holland). He described the cetma as a great family bike, but when I looked online, I could only find info on cetma being a cargo-oriented bike, without an established record hauling kids.

I would love to be wrong here, because more family-bike dealers in the area is good for us.

And you should come to a Kidical Mass Arlington (kidicalmassarl.blogspot.com)ride. Lots of different family bike set ups.

Thanks! I'm interested both in moving cargo and my child around by bike. When and where is this Kidical Mass? The link you sent me seems to suggest random get-togethers. I live in Bethesda and I am a full-time student, so surprise get-togethers in Arlington may not work out for me, but I would love to see the different cargo bike options that parents have made work for them.

Other than the CETMA's possible country of origin, I like that it is separable into parts that could possibly fit into a regular-sized vehicle. I plan on keeping my bike much longer than my current living arrangements or vehicle.

I did get an opportunity to ride a Larry v. Harry Bullitt from a fellow full-time student/father. That was fun. Disconcerting at first, but fun.

dasgeh
09-04-2013, 09:00 AM
Thanks! I'm interested both in moving cargo and my child around by bike. When and where is this Kidical Mass? The link you sent me seems to suggest random get-togethers.


There are Kidical Mass groups all over the country, and they are group rides for families. Arlington's is the third Sunday of the month + some other random rides I've organized for fun. Yes, those are in Arlington, so might not be great for you. There's a group in DC (http://kidicalmassdc.blogspot.com/), but they've mostly been on hiatus this year. I believe there was a ride up in Rockville (?) and you're welcome to start one in Bethesda. The turnout for Arlington has been awesome.

Oh, and the Arlington rides start somewhere with parking (and either end nearby, or I'll guide you back), so plenty of people drive to the rides.

jinomas
09-04-2013, 10:23 AM
I had a pretty good experience at the Green Commuter. I test rode a Yuba Mundo and also a second-hand hybrid loaded with Xtracycle family accessories. The guy I talked to was sad that I didn't buy a Yuba from him that day, but once we established I was not not in a hurry to buy even though he was in a hurry to sell, we had pretty good rapport. We mostly talked about family bikes. They had two CETMAs. One they built up with a box and electric assist and the other was a window display. The unbuilt frame was a brightly-colored and attention-grabbing piece of bike art.

kyleg
09-04-2013, 03:19 PM
We received our Workcycles Cargobike Long (Bakfiets) back in May and finally got the go-ahead to take our 10-week old out for a ride last week. We've been out three times now and he even took a nap on the last, longest ride. I'd love to hear how other parents have installed infant carseats in their baks. We're using the Workcycles mounting block (essentially a wooden platform bolted through the floor) with a cushion pad on top and the carseat LATCH base strapped on top of it all. It holds the carseat securely, but I'd still like to minimize the vibration a little more. (Of course, the imminent re-paving of the 15th Street Cycletrack ought to help immensely).362736323633

Tim Kelley
09-04-2013, 03:27 PM
Do you mind sharing a ballpark cost, overall weight of the bike, sizing abilities, and how you think it handles/rides?

dasgeh
09-04-2013, 04:18 PM
We received our Workcycles Cargobike Long (Bakfiets) back in May and finally got the go-ahead to take our 10-week old out for a ride last week. We've been out three times now and he even took a nap on the last, longest ride. I'd love to hear how other parents have installed infant carseats in their baks. We're using the Workcycles mounting block (essentially a wooden platform bolted through the floor) with a cushion pad on top and the carseat LATCH base strapped on top of it all. It holds the carseat securely, but I'd still like to minimize the vibration a little more. (Of course, the imminent re-paving of the 15th Street Cycletrack ought to help immensely).362736323633

CONGRATULATIONS! Isn't it fun?

Our baby is a bit older -- almost 10 months now, about 7.5 when we got our bakfiets (the bakfiets.nl from Rolling Orange - yes, we sprang for e-assist). We strapped the base of our Graco carseat into the box of the bakfiets by using a strap threaded through the two holes in the bottom front of the box. The seat just snaps in and out. We haven't had issues with vibration, but if we did, we'd just put a blanket under the carseat base and maybe let some air out of the tires.

You should come out to Kidical Mass Arlington (kidicalmassarl.blogspot.com)(though I understand that's a tall ask). Next ride is Sunday, September 15th. I'm reconning the route tonight!

DismalScientist
09-04-2013, 04:24 PM
This looks like an excellent potential use of a "recycled" inner tube.

Meganomics
09-05-2013, 11:07 PM
There's a dad in DC who bikes around with his son on a CETMA. He loves the bike; however, he's found the company-- and in particular the owner/designer-- hard to work with.

His review of the CETMA cargo bike is here: http://arideaday.blogspot.com/2011/12/cetma-cargo-bike-review.html

btj
09-06-2013, 02:44 AM
There's a dad in DC who bikes around with his son on a CETMA. He loves the bike; however, he's found the company-- and in particular the owner/designer-- hard to work with.

His review of the CETMA cargo bike is here: http://arideaday.blogspot.com/2011/12/cetma-cargo-bike-review.html

This reminded me of a Facebook group where the owner of CETMA (Lane Kagay) posts sometimes. The group started out focusing on a crowd-sourced documentary (originally titled Revolutions Per Second, but now titled Less Car More Go: http://www.lizcanning.com/Liz_Canning_Creative/Cargo_Bike_Documentary.html). There is still talk and updates about the film there but it has kind of turned into a general cargo bike group as well.

http://facebook.com/groups/143992445698518

The group is a great resource for getting in touch with owners of all kinds of cargo bikes. It's also great just for the photos of all the various setups that people post.

jinomas
09-06-2013, 09:54 PM
There's a dad in DC who bikes around with his son on a CETMA. He loves the bike; however, he's found the company-- and in particular the owner/designer-- hard to work with.

His review of the CETMA cargo bike is here: http://arideaday.blogspot.com/2011/12/cetma-cargo-bike-review.html

Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for: someone with both experience and thoughts on a CETMA. He even uses in exactly the same way I intend to: hauling around one kid (and cargo).

It seems CETMA has since addressed some of the complaints mentioned in his review. He hired a guy to help him keep track of his orders, at his shop, and develop new accessories. Also his concerns about a rear rack and a canopy have been addressed. And the Green Commuter is a CETMA dealer, so I wouldn't be pioneering it like the brave soul who wrote the blog.
Unfortunately this local DC CETMA-owner has not updated his blog in some time. I wonder what his impressions of his bike are now that he has ridden it for two years.

One thing my new Bullitt-owning friend pointed out is that the Bullitt's frame has a much more rigid design than the CETMA at the point where rear half of the frame connects to the deck that holds the box. But he conceded that he would probably need a truck to haul his bike around as it doesn't come apart for easy transport like the CETMA. He also has a garage (full of bikes apparently) for easy storage. Interestingly he built his cargo box to be wider than the frame of his Bullitt to accommodate two children and cargo and he added a rack. I found that a few multi-child parents ultimately rejected the Bullitt due to its small box platform. My friend effectively solved that with a few trips to Home Depot.

Tim Kelley
09-09-2013, 09:55 AM
I found that a few multi-child parents ultimately rejected the Bullitt due to its small box platform. My friend effectively solved that with a few trips to Home Depot.

If I was going cargo bike, this is what I would do.

dasgeh
09-09-2013, 10:11 AM
I found that a few multi-child parents ultimately rejected the Bullitt due to its small box platform. My friend effectively solved that with a few trips to Home Depot.

We rejected it for that, and because we just prefer the ride, stability and safety record of the bakfiets.

Meganomics
09-10-2013, 11:54 AM
Unfortunately this local DC CETMA-owner has not updated his blog in some time. I wonder what his impressions of his bike are now that he has ridden it for two years.

I see him occasionally. I haven't talked to him about his long-term impressions in detail, but he still uses it and still likes it. He's exhibited at the ABC's of Family Biking in the past and agreed to serve as a resource for local parents, so I'm happy to DM you his e-mail address if you'd like to do some follow-up.

jinomas
09-10-2013, 02:37 PM
I see him occasionally. I haven't talked to him about his long-term impressions in detail, but he still uses it and still likes it. He's exhibited at the ABC's of Family Biking in the past and agreed to serve as a resource for local parents, so I'm happy to DM you his e-mail address if you'd like to do some follow-up.

That would be cool.