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View Full Version : Protected Bike Lane on Quincy btwn 9th and Wilson



DrP
08-12-2018, 06:20 AM
About a week ago they scraped up the Wilson-Quincy intersection and Quincy down to 9th. This past week they repaved and put in a protected bike lane. The repaving is WONDERFUL! That section was all potholes and patchwork fixes that left it crazy bumpy. The PBL looks nice.

Unfortunately the PBL hasn't stopped cars from being in the bike lane - at one of the driveways a vehicle was stopped half in the parking lane and half in the bike lane on Friday. I expect it to be no better over time - that street is crazy for people trying to park, double parking, dropping/picking up people and food. And I always want to make a left on and off Quincy (Wilson and Fairfax), so I need to take the lane.

Judd
08-12-2018, 11:28 AM
Some pictures I took yesterday. These are all going northbound. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180812/7a7df361868c31e47eb8e96030782d37.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180812/cffcc94a16d91e29fc3d4639882e496b.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180812/2b4ded1023f18a6feeb7a929e3dede65.jpg

Judd
08-12-2018, 11:45 AM
I rode southbound multiple times yesterday because I was moving some CaBI bikes to score Bike Angel points. The 15 minute drop off zone looms like itís going to be problematic because the drop zone is along the curb instead of having a buffer. Running the bike lane along the curb and making the drop off zone outside of some flexposts would still allow the drop zone to exist and prevent the bike lane from being blocked.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180812/9ae8f182c2633759f346c0a83de4410c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180812/15122358a2cd1b0c3c0b793cf7e99bcc.jpg


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Guus
08-14-2018, 11:17 AM
I've been using this PBL for a few days now and I love it. I'm probably changing my commute to permanently use it. (Can't wait for the rest of Quincy :) )

The 15 minute drop off zone was blocked this morning by a Home Depot truck.

Judd
08-14-2018, 11:44 AM
I've been using this PBL for a few days now and I love it. I'm probably changing my commute to permanently use it. (Can't wait for the rest of Quincy :) )

The 15 minute drop off zone was blocked this morning by a Home Depot truck.

If it isnít too much trouble, could you start taking pictures when the 15 minute spot is blocked and post here? Iíd like to gather a bucket of evidence to support a campaign to modify this spot.


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Brendan von Buckingham
08-14-2018, 01:22 PM
That last photo showing the bike lane needing to cross the right turn lane about 25 feet short of Wilson is a clusterf***. Made worse by the "yield to bikes" sign being only about 3 feet beyond the last available parking spot. Imagine driving 20 mph to the light along a line of parked cars. Can't see any cyclists so I guess I don't have yield. Surprise! The bike was there the whole time.

Judd
08-14-2018, 01:51 PM
That last photo showing the bike lane needing to cross the right turn lane about 25 feet short of Wilson is a clusterf***. Made worse by the "yield to bikes" sign being only about 3 feet beyond the last available parking spot. Imagine driving 20 mph to the light along a line of parked cars. Can't see any cyclists so I guess I don't have yield. Surprise! The bike was there the whole time.

I donít care much for mixing zones but this one was probably the best that Iíve experienced. Way better than L and M in DC. The sight line was fairly long and it angled the bike lane in a way that made it easier to check for cars.

I was riding slower than normal which I tend to do in most PBLs which helped with the mixing zone.


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lordofthemark
08-14-2018, 02:13 PM
That last photo showing the bike lane needing to cross the right turn lane about 25 feet short of Wilson is a clusterf***. Made worse by the "yield to bikes" sign being only about 3 feet beyond the last available parking spot. Imagine driving 20 mph to the light along a line of parked cars. Can't see any cyclists so I guess I don't have yield. Surprise! The bike was there the whole time.

Imagine driving 20MPH. I would love to say that to every driver in Alexandria. To the tune of, well, Imagine.
Imagine there's no 35, I know its hard to do, nothing to kill or die for ......

KWL
08-14-2018, 04:51 PM
...Imagine there's no 35, I know its hard to do, nothing to kill or die for ......Did you see the speed limit for Route 1 near Potomac Yard is being pulled down from 35mph to 25mph? THAT should be a revenue generator for the city.

Judd
08-14-2018, 05:27 PM
Did you see the speed limit for Route 1 near Potomac Yard is being pulled down from 35mph to 25mph? THAT should be a revenue generator for the city.

Thatís going to be rough without some engineering changes. I drive a car on King St last weekend (also 25) and it took deliberate effort to obey the speed limit.


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lordofthemark
08-14-2018, 07:14 PM
Did you see the speed limit for Route 1 near Potomac Yard is being pulled down from 35mph to 25mph? THAT should be a revenue generator for the city.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/alexandrialivingmagazine.com/api/amp/news/route-1-speed-limit-to-decrease-to-25-mph/

lordofthemark
08-14-2018, 07:18 PM
That’s going to be rough without some engineering changes. I drive a car on King St last weekend (also 25) and it took deliberate effort to obey the speed limit.


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Its a wider road than King Street. OTOH the massing of the buildings is already starting to give it an urban appearance, which also contributes to traffic calming, IIUC.

consularrider
08-15-2018, 01:16 AM
That’s going to be rough without some engineering changes. I drive a car on King St last weekend (also 25) and it took deliberate effort to obey the speed limit.


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I feel your pain. We have a lot of 30 km per hour (18 mph) zones in Germany with speed cameras. These are not school zones, just residential neighborhoods, some on quite wide streets. I'm just waiting for the Consulate to get notification of my ticket on my bike. ;)

Brett L.
08-15-2018, 11:02 AM
I feel your pain. We have a lot of 30 km per hour (18 mph) zones in Germany with speed cameras. These are not school zones, just residential neighborhoods, some on quite wide streets. I'm just waiting for the Consulate to get notification of my ticket on my bike. ;)

Scofflaw cyclist ignoring the speedlimit.....

consularrider
08-17-2018, 02:31 AM
Scofflaw cyclist ignoring the speedlimit.....

That's ok, I still get passed by 100% of the car drivers. It was fun at midnight having all the speeders on Adicksallee slow down for the two block 30 km speed limit in the work zone for the Frankfurt School of Fiance and Management just before you get to the city (Google maps mistranslates "Stadt" as "state") police headquarters. Props to Frankfurt for putting in a west bound bike lane there when they closed the sidewalk and cycletrack there for the construction. I think there is a speed camera.

dbb
08-17-2018, 06:20 AM
We have a lot of 30 km per hour (18 mph) zones in Germany with speed cameras. These are not school zones, just residential neighborhoods, some on quite wide streets. I'm just waiting for the Consulate to get notification of my ticket on my bike. ;)

Pictures or it didn't happen!

Judd
09-19-2018, 06:57 PM
WABA just published a blog post about the Quincy Protected Bike Lane. It includes a link to send a note to the County. My comment noted that I hadn't ever deliberately visited Ballston in the five years I've lived here and I've been three times since the PBL was installed and have spent money each time.

http://www.waba.org/blog/2018/09/arlington-delivers-a-bike-friendlyer-ballston/

Brendan von Buckingham
05-22-2019, 09:47 AM
Bicycles have now been restricted from taking the lane on Quincy Street. They must use the bike lane according to the new signs mounted on the bollards. The signs were new to me this morning. I can't find an image of the sign in the AASHTO standards, but it's white and defines a split where cars must ride left and bikes must ride right. I would have taken a picture of the new signs this morning but a northbound cement mixer truck with trailer was wiping them all out as it turned right on Wilson while I followed behind it at its seven o'clock to make my right turn too.

lordofthemark
05-22-2019, 11:01 AM
Bicycles have now been restricted from taking the lane on Quincy Street. They must use the bike lane according to the new signs mounted on the bollards. The signs were new to me this morning. I can't find an image of the sign in the AASHTO standards, but it's white and defines a split where cars must ride left and bikes must ride right. I would have taken a picture of the new signs this morning but a northbound cement mixer truck with trailer was wiping them all out as it turned right on Wilson while I followed behind it at its seven o'clock to make my right turn too.

ISTR a car bike split sign at the entrance to the SB PBL on Hayes (though I can't find it on google street view) I am pretty sure that sign did not indicate taking the lane was banned, and even if it did, I don't think that would be enforceable in Virginia.

DrP
05-22-2019, 12:29 PM
ISTR a car bike split sign at the entrance to the SB PBL on Hayes (though I can't find it on google street view) I am pretty sure that sign did not indicate taking the lane was banned, and even if it did, I don't think that would be enforceable in Virginia.

Yes, it looks like the one on Hayes. I think it is there to let the cars know that it is not a car lane. It hasn't stopped the gardeners from blocking the lane on Hayes. If they get one north of Quincy, I doubt it will stop the folks running in and out of subway and the ABC store, but at least I can point to it when I yell at them for blocking the bike lane. There is nothing about the sign that indicates to me that bikes are banned from the roadway.

Brendan von Buckingham
05-31-2019, 08:25 AM
According to DOT sign standards white signs indicate requirements (speed limit, one way, etc.), yellow signs indicate advice (curve ahead, reduce speed ahead, etc.). By using a white sign they are saying that it is required for bikes to use the bike lane.

lordofthemark
05-31-2019, 08:30 AM
According to DOT sign standards white signs indicate requirements (speed limit, one way, etc.), yellow signs indicate advice (curve ahead, reduce speed ahead, etc.). By using a white sign they are saying that it is required for bikes to use the bike lane.

It IS a requirement that cars not enter the bike lane, so a yellow sign would not be appropriate.

dasgeh
05-31-2019, 08:39 AM
According to DOT sign standards white signs indicate requirements (speed limit, one way, etc.), yellow signs indicate advice (curve ahead, reduce speed ahead, etc.). By using a white sign they are saying that it is required for bikes to use the bike lane.

What law would a bicycle violate by taking the lane? Seriously. I don't know of any Virginia law, but you seem to have thought about this, so...

ginacico
05-31-2019, 09:19 AM
It IS a requirement that cars not enter the bike lane

Just curious, can you cite this law for Alexandria? Someone I know tried to look it up recently, and couldn't find it. (The bike lane violators were parked PD cruisers in Carlyle.)

scoot
05-31-2019, 11:31 AM
For sake of discussion, this is one of the new signs (looking northbound on N Quincy Street from the intersection with 5th Rd N):

20113

scoot
05-31-2019, 12:02 PM
I think (hope?) we all agree that Arlington cannot legally prohibit bicyclists from taking the lane on Quincy. However, that is precisely the message communicated by this sign. If you interpret this sign as an indication that motorists are forbidden to use the bike lane, then by symmetry the sign also indicates that bicyclists are forbidden to use the general lane.

Many cyclists will not want to use the separated facility. Signage like this could encourage harassment from aggressive or uninformed drivers, possibly including police. If such a sign is needed to keep motorists out of the bike lane, then the left side should be depicted for cars and bikes, with the right side for bikes only. Also it would be helpful to paint sharrows in the general travel lane to emphasize that message.

lordofthemark
05-31-2019, 12:20 PM
I think (hope?) we all agree that Arlington cannot legally prohibit bicyclists from taking the lane on Quincy. However, that is precisely the message communicated by this sign. If you interpret this sign as an indication that motorists are forbidden to use the bike lane, then by symmetry the sign also indicates that bicyclists are forbidden to use the general lane.

Many cyclists will not want to use the separated facility. Signage like this could encourage harassment from aggressive or uninformed drivers, possibly including police. If such a sign is needed to keep motorists out of the bike lane, then the left side should be depicted for cars and bikes, with the right side for bikes only. Also it would be helpful to paint sharrows in the general travel lane to emphasize that message.

I think painting BOTH sharrows in the general travel and bike symbols in a bike lane would be confusing to inexperienced riders, if it is done anywhere in the country I am not aware of it, and I am not sure there are models for that in NACTO or AASHTO guides.

I think most riders who would be inclined to take the lane in lieu of a PBL such as the ones mentioned know the law and understand what the signs mean.

I am not sure a sign with bikes and cars on the left, and bikes on the right, would not also be confusing, but welcome both images of such signs in place and positive experiences with them.

As for harassment, I have yet to see evidence that its impacted by the presence of segregated infrastructure (we all have our anecdotes).


As for police, there is a simple policy answer, which is to educate the police about the bike laws. Police leadership who take this seriously and are bike riders themselves can accomplish this, I think.

mstone
05-31-2019, 12:45 PM
main problem I see is that I'm not sure it's a legal sign. The should have gone with a standard marking instead.

CaseyKane50
05-31-2019, 02:13 PM
Just curious, can you cite this law for Alexandria? Someone I know tried to look it up recently, and couldn't find it. (The bike lane violators were parked PD cruisers in Carlyle.)

https://library.municode.com/va/alexandria/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=PTIITHCOGEOR_TIT10MOVETR _CH4STSTPA_S10-4-45PAPRBILA


Sec. 10-4-45 - Parking prohibited in bike lanes.
Where the city has designated a bicycle lane, a motor vehicle may cross a bicycle lane for the purpose of the vehicle entering or exiting adjacent property, for making a turn, or for the purpose of parking, but no person shall stop, stand or park a motor vehicle in a bicycle lane. (Ord. No. 5185, 12/15/18, Sec. 1)

baiskeli
05-31-2019, 02:23 PM
I think (hope?) we all agree that Arlington cannot legally prohibit bicyclists from taking the lane on Quincy. However, that is precisely the message communicated by this sign. If you interpret this sign as an indication that motorists are forbidden to use the bike lane, then by symmetry the sign also indicates that bicyclists are forbidden to use the general lane.

I see the sign as simply an indicator of which lanes are which, not requirements. At least that's the intent that I perceive. They are like painted lane markers in that regard. Of course, now we can ponder whether lane markers are legal requirements....

lordofthemark
05-31-2019, 02:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqu132vTl5Y

scoot
05-31-2019, 02:34 PM
At least that's the intent that I perceive.

I agree this is the intent. But the white sign color indicates that the information is regulatory, per MUTCD.

lordofthemark
05-31-2019, 02:54 PM
It IS regulatory. What may be confusing people is the use of pictures as short hands for the law.

Does anyone think that the presence of a bike symbol, but no scooter symbol, with the pointer to the bike lane means scooters are banned from those lanes? Clearly they are not.

The symbols mean - the lane on the right is a "bike lane". It is open to all vehicles eligible to use bike lanes under Virginia Law and local codes - which means human powered bikes, ebikes, scooters - but NOT cars, motorcycles, etc.. The lane on the left is a general travel lane - it is open to all vehicles eligible to use general travel lanes under Va law and local codes - cars, trucks, buses, motorcycles, bikes, ebikes, escooters, etc.

It not practical or necessary to have a symbol for each type of vehicle. A "bikes may use full lane sign" sign can be added if there is an actual problem with harassment.

zsionakides
05-31-2019, 03:06 PM
I think (hope?) we all agree that Arlington cannot legally prohibit bicyclists from taking the lane on Quincy. However, that is precisely the message communicated by this sign. If you interpret this sign as an indication that motorists are forbidden to use the bike lane, then by symmetry the sign also indicates that bicyclists are forbidden to use the general lane.

Many cyclists will not want to use the separated facility. Signage like this could encourage harassment from aggressive or uninformed drivers, possibly including police. If such a sign is needed to keep motorists out of the bike lane, then the left side should be depicted for cars and bikes, with the right side for bikes only. Also it would be helpful to paint sharrows in the general travel lane to emphasize that message.

I think the law is unclear in VA if you would be allowed to use the regular travel lane for traveling. Bikes are supposed to stay to the right under VA law, unless impractical. To me, that means by law you probably have to use the bike lane, unless there was some issue that makes it impractical - e.g. turning left at some location along Quincy, the bike lane was blocked or flooded, etc.

mstone
06-03-2019, 07:33 AM
It IS regulatory. What may be confusing people is the use of pictures as short hands for the law.

That's why they're supposed to use standard signs rather than making shit up as they go along.

dasgeh
06-03-2019, 08:58 AM
Does anyone think that the presence of a bike symbol, but no scooter symbol, with the pointer to the bike lane means scooters are banned from those lanes? Clearly they are not.

The symbols mean - the lane on the right is a "bike lane". It is open to all vehicles eligible to use bike lanes under Virginia Law and local codes - which means human powered bikes, ebikes, scooters - but NOT cars, motorcycles, etc.. The lane on the left is a general travel lane - it is open to all vehicles eligible to use general travel lanes under Va law and local codes - cars, trucks, buses, motorcycles, bikes, ebikes, escooters, etc.


So, fun fact, the Arlington County Ordinances relevant to bike lanes are 14.2-65 & 65.1 (https://arlingtonva.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/22/2014/01/County-Code-14-2-Motor-Vehicles-and-Traffic.pdf). I'll leave it to you all to read it and form an opinion as to whether scooters are allowed in bike lanes.

At the BAC meeting tonight, we'll be talking about where ebikes and escooters should ride and whether there are sections of Arlington Code that should be amended...

Steve O
06-03-2019, 09:22 AM
So, fun fact, the Arlington County Ordinances relevant to bike lanes are 14.2-65 & 65.1 (https://arlingtonva.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/22/2014/01/County-Code-14-2-Motor-Vehicles-and-Traffic.pdf). I'll leave it to you all to read it and form an opinion as to whether scooters are allowed in bike lanes.

At the BAC meeting tonight, we'll be talking about where ebikes and escooters should ride and whether there are sections of Arlington Code that should be amended...

14.2-65.1 seems like it could be problematic. Unless it is continually updated (it's now 4 years old), someone driving a car on a bike lane that is not on the list might make the claim that they were not operating illegally.

scoot
06-03-2019, 12:02 PM
14.2-65.1 seems like it could be problematic. Unless it is continually updated (it's now 4 years old), someone driving a car on a bike lane that is not on the list might make the claim that they were not operating illegally.

That list also contains some errors/omissions regarding bike lanes that definitely existed in 2014.

scoot
06-03-2019, 12:46 PM
I think the law is unclear in VA if you would be allowed to use the regular travel lane for traveling. Bikes are supposed to stay to the right under VA law, unless impractical. To me, that means by law you probably have to use the bike lane, unless there was some issue that makes it impractical - e.g. turning left at some location along Quincy, the bike lane was blocked or flooded, etc.

"Safely practicable" is the language used in ß 46.2-905 (https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-905/). A non-exhaustive list of exceptions is provided, indicating many examples of situations that permit riding further left than is necessary merely to be safely practicable. Depending on design and scene conditions, PBL facilities are often safely practicable only for low-speed cycling (~10MPH).

Would state law forbid a cyclist from riding 20MPH (i.e. less than the normal speed of traffic) in the general travel lane due to the presence of a PBL that is only safe at half that speed? Has a court ever weighed in on this?

lordofthemark
06-03-2019, 01:13 PM
"Safely practicable" is the language used in ß 46.2-905 (https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-905/). A non-exhaustive list of exceptions is provided, indicating many examples of situations that permit riding further left than is necessary merely to be safely practicable. Depending on design and scene conditions, PBL facilities are often safely practicable only for low-speed cycling (~10MPH).

Would state law forbid a cyclist from riding 20MPH (i.e. less than the normal speed of traffic) in the general travel lane due to the presence of a PBL that is only safe at half that speed? Has a court ever weighed in on this?

1. Until quite recently there were no PBLs in Virginia
2. I doubt any police force in any city or county in Virginia WITH a PBL would cite a cyclist for riding in the general travel lane near a PBL - probably even a slow cyclist. So it would only come to court in a civil case, I guess. If a driver hit a cyclist taking the lane adjacent to a PBL and their attorney chose to invoke 46.2
3. I don't know if we have even had any collisions in that kind of location in those kinds of circumstances.

edit - the first protected bike lanes in Arlington were Hayes and Eads Streets in 2014. Those were certainly the first in NoVa. The first in Richmond was in 2018, so I guess there were none before 2014. And the total "lane mile - years" of PBLs in Virginia is pretty small.

zsionakides
06-03-2019, 02:43 PM
2. I doubt any police force in any city or county in Virginia WITH a PBL would cite a cyclist for riding in the general travel lane near a PBL - probably even a slow cyclist. So it would only come to court in a civil case, I guess. If a driver hit a cyclist taking the lane adjacent to a PBL and their attorney chose to invoke 46.2
.

This, plus VA's contributory negligence laws are what concern me. If you ride in the regular lane and get ran over by a reckless driver, does the single fact you weren't in the PBL limit your ability to collect damages.

dasgeh
06-03-2019, 02:55 PM
This, plus VA's contributory negligence laws are what concern me. If you ride in the regular lane and get ran over by a reckless driver, does the single fact you weren't in the PBL limit your ability to collect damages.

Given that there are some circumstances where you would need to take the lane (PBL blocked, turning left), this seems unlikely.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me if some judge/jury in VA found contrib just for riding a bike at all, so there's that. But that's no reason not to put up a sign like Arlington did on Quincy.

Brendan von Buckingham
06-11-2019, 12:48 PM
The car side of the sign should be white and the bike side of the sign should be yellow.

Still, last week, with an earthmover and 4 construction workers taking up the bike lane and me in the main lane I had the joy of a Ford 150 driver yelling at me to, "Get in the bike lane or I will f---ing run you over next time." Good times, good times.

sjclaeys
06-11-2019, 01:25 PM
The car side of the sign should be white and the bike side of the sign should be yellow.

Still, last week, with an earthmover and 4 construction workers taking up the bike lane and me in the main lane I had the joy of a Ford 150 driver yelling at me to, "Get in the bike lane or I will f---ing run you over next time." Good times, good times.

Would have been great if you replied "and you'll end up in f---ing jail!" but unfortunately we know that is not necessarily true.

huskerdont
06-11-2019, 01:26 PM
the joy of a Ford 150 driver yelling at me to, "Get in the bike lane or I will f---ing run you over next time." Good times, good times.

A failure of humanity, not necessarily a failure of infrastructure.

mstone
06-11-2019, 03:11 PM
A failure of humanity, not necessarily a failure of infrastructure.

perfectly reasonable to be both