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lordofthemark
05-29-2018, 10:42 AM
Ok.

On the way home on Saturday, going up the "hill" on North Hampton, fortunately only a couple of blocks from home, I managed to get my chain very badly stuck in my front gears. As in all wrapped/entangled. The wheels still rolled, and I walked the bike home to the bike room. We had a trip to Baltimore planned, and I had no time to address this till yesterday evening.

I cannot brute force the chain out (though maybe if I tried a LOT of lube?)

It seems to me there are two approaches. 1. Loosen the pedal arm/chain rings 2. Break the chain

I was unable to loosen the pedal arm at all.

Breaking the chain ring then presents two options. A. Open the master link B. Open another link

I found the master link and managed to wriggle it away from the chain rings. It is far too stiff for me to open with my hands, and my bike room does not have the "master chain link opener" I see referenced on line. Some online videos suggest making your own with a wire coat hanger.

To open one of the regular links, you use a more standard chain opener tool. My bike room DOES have that. I refrained from using it, as the videos etc warn that once you open a link that way, you cannot reuse the rivet (at least for many gearings).

POTM (my daughter) arrived home Monday night, and reminded me that she knows how to use the tool to open links (she did that in making the bike chain menorah) but she cannot speak to rivet reuse.

Should I 1. Open one of the links with the tool and just reuse the rivet 2. Same as 1, but try to find another rivet to replace (if I can find the leftover chain from the menorah project, or buy a rivet?) 3. Just buy a new chain (no I am not sure if the chain is stretched - don't think so) 4. Buy a tool to open the master link. 5. Try to make my own tool with a wire hanger (or assign this project to POTM) 6 Give up and take it to Phoenix or Spokes ?

bentbike33
05-29-2018, 10:54 AM
Ok.

On the way home on Saturday, going up the "hill" on North Hampton, fortunately only a couple of blocks from home, I managed to get my chain very badly stuck in my front gears. As in all wrapped/entangled. The wheels still rolled, and I walked the bike home to the bike room. We had a trip to Baltimore planned, and I had no time to address this till yesterday evening.

I cannot brute force the chain out (though maybe if I tried a LOT of lube?)

It seems to me there are two approaches. 1. Loosen the pedal arm/chain rings 2. Break the chain

I was unable to loosen the pedal arm at all.

Breaking the chain ring then presents two options. A. Open the master link B. Open another link

I found the master link and managed to wriggle it away from the chain rings. It is far too stiff for me to open with my hands, and my bike room does not have the "master chain link opener" I see referenced on line. Some online videos suggest making your own with a wire coat hanger.

To open one of the regular links, you use a more standard chain opener tool. My bike room DOES have that. I refrained from using it, as the videos etc warn that once you open a link that way, you cannot reuse the rivet (at least for many gearings).

POTM (my daughter) arrived home Monday night, and reminded me that she knows how to use the tool to open links (she did that in making the bike chain menorah) but she cannot speak to rivet reuse.

Should I 1. Open one of the links with the tool and just reuse the rivet 2. Same as 1, but try to find another rivet to replace (if I can find the leftover chain from the menorah project, or buy a rivet?) 3. Just buy a new chain (no I am not sure if the chain is stretched - don't think so) 4. Buy a tool to open the master link. 5. Try to make my own tool with a wire hanger (or assign this project to POTM) 6 Give up and take it to Phoenix or Spokes ?

I doubt opening the master link or otherwise breaking the chain will help you here. Where is the chain jammed, between the crank and frame, or between chainrings? If between the crank and frame, you will need to move the right crank arm to the right, and how to do this depends upon the crank/bottom bracket type. If the chain is jammed between chainrings (unusual) loosening the chainring bolts with an allen wrench (usually 5mm) should work.

It would be a good idea to post some pictures.

lordofthemark
05-29-2018, 10:58 AM
I doubt opening the master link or otherwise breaking the chain will help you here. Where is the chain jammed, between the crank and frame, or between chainrings? If between the crank and frame, you will need to move the right crank arm to the right, and how to do this depends upon the crank/bottom bracket type. If the chain is jammed between chainrings (unusual) loosening the chainring bolts with an allen wrench (usually 5mm) should work.

It would be a good idea to post some pictures.


its hard to describe - IIRC between the frame and the chain rings, but then kind of wrapped around/through the chain rings.

I can take a picture when I get home.

lordofthemark
05-29-2018, 09:04 PM
Here are some pics.

Steve O
05-29-2018, 11:22 PM
Here are some pics.

That's a mess. Either buy a new bike or take it to Phoenix, IMO.

mstone
05-30-2018, 06:19 AM
disassemble the crankset maybe? that's impressive.

drevil
05-30-2018, 06:47 AM
That's a mess. Either buy a new bike ...

LOL :D

In this case, breaking the chain might help because you might be able to pull the chain straight out (with some effort) instead of having to wrestle it back up between the small chainring and frame.

Before I had a master link chain tool, I'd use a pliers or a Vise-Grip to open them:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1748/42451578041_e3f24cba38_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/27Firak)
Open Master Link using Vise-Grip Pliers (https://flic.kr/p/27Firak) by ricky d (https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikecentric/), on Flickr

The reason you don't want to reuse a pin is because they are bigger diameter on the ends to help hold them in place. When you push it all the way through, the hole in the chain plate becomes also becomes bigger. Pushing back in an old pin will result in a looser fit, which may give as you are putting down the power climbing a hill.

You'll notice with those replacement pins that the sections that engage with the outer plates (the red arrows) are slightly bigger than the center section. (The green arrow points to the section that you snap off after installing the pin.)
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If all else fails, bring it to a shop :)

Harry Meatmotor
05-30-2018, 07:30 AM
From the pictures it looks like you shouldn't need to break the chain. Just pull the crank arm, however, that'll require a square-taper crank arm puller:

CCP-22 (https://www.parktool.com/product/crank-puller-for-square-taper-cranks-ccp-22?category=Crank%20%26%20Bottom%20Bracket)

TwoWheelsDC
05-30-2018, 12:02 PM
Whenever you get the chain fixed, I would also suggest making sure that the lower limit screw on your front derailleur is properly set. It's possible to drop a chain no matter how well your FD is adjusted, but if the lower limit is set too far inward, it makes this type of thing much more likely.

Crickey7
05-30-2018, 01:10 PM
Unless that chain is nearly new, I'd just break it and get a new one.

lordofthemark
05-30-2018, 02:40 PM
We do not seem to have a consensus here. I guess maybe try the crank arm first (I think the bike room has one of those taper things) and then go ahead and break the chain - using pliers if I can find them in our general purpose tool chest, or the regular chain break tool otherwise (and worry about the rivet later). BTW, the chain has 3000 miles on it.

TwoWheelsDC
05-30-2018, 03:03 PM
We do not seem to have a consensus here. I guess maybe try the crank arm first (I think the bike room has one of those taper things) and then go ahead and break the chain - using pliers if I can find them in our general purpose tool chest, or the regular chain break tool otherwise (and worry about the rivet later). BTW, the chain has 3000 miles on it.

If you pull the crank arm, you won't need to break the chain. The converse isn't necessarily true.

Crickey7
05-30-2018, 03:25 PM
BTW, the chain has 3000 miles on it.

That nails it for me. It's generally due anyway (which may be one of the reasons it came off). And the yanking and twisting forces probably stretched it further.

lordofthemark
05-30-2018, 03:31 PM
That nails it for me. It's generally due anyway (which may be one of the reasons it came off). And the yanking and twisting forces probably stretched it further.

Does it change to not doing the crank arm first? I'd rather not mess with the crank arm if I can avoid it.

Crickey7
05-30-2018, 03:45 PM
There are no guarantees, but I think you're more likely to be able to get it out without removing the crank arm if you've decided the chain cannot be salvaged.

n18
05-30-2018, 04:11 PM
You can buy a second master link for $5(Links: Performance (https://www.performancebike.com/shop/bike-parts-components/bike-chains-bike-cassettes/road-bike-chains#facet:&productBeginIndex:0&facetLimit:&orderBy:3&pageView:grid&minPrice:&maxPrice:&pageSize:&), REI (https://www.rei.com/c/chains?r=category%3Adrivetrain-components%7Cchains&origin=web&ir=category%3Adrivetrain-components&sort=min-price), Spokes (https://spokesetc.com/product-list/parts-1051/chains-1059/?rb_av=instore)(Not in stock?)). REI has been offering for months at least 10% off drivetrain components, so you can buy 3 chains, or 2 master links and a chain to qualify. This is in addition to the 10% store credit, or the equivalent of 19% discount.

Also, this tool (https://www.performancebike.com/shop/bike-tools-transport/tools-workstands/chain-tools/park-tool-mlp-12-master-link-pliers-40-1280) both opens and closes master links. I bought it after hurting my hand while using the pliers method to open chain links.

n18
05-30-2018, 04:18 PM
BTW, the chain has 3000 miles on it. Recently, I discovered that my chain (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AYOP9M/) is stretched beyond 0.5% and 0.75% on the chain indicator tool. It had 1600 Miles and 6 months on it and I oiled it maybe 3 times.

hozn
05-30-2018, 07:49 PM
I'd actually make the counterpoint that this chain has too many miles on it to be worth changing. You'll likely need a new cassette if you put a new chain on now. (Or maybe it won't make much difference, but either way, the new chain isn't going to do anything for the life of your cassette.) So, keep the 3k-miles chain and run it down with the cassette. You should get another 2-3k miles out of both of them, I'd think.

Harry Meatmotor
05-31-2018, 08:11 AM
We do not seem to have a consensus here. I guess maybe try the crank arm first (I think the bike room has one of those taper things) and then go ahead and break the chain - using pliers if I can find them in our general purpose tool chest, or the regular chain break tool otherwise (and worry about the rivet later). BTW, the chain has 3000 miles on it.

regardless of consensus, my opinion as a mechanic with 20+ years experience is that crank arm will likely need to be removed to un-entangle the chain. using a square taper crank arm puller is not without its pitfalls; it is very easy to cross-thread the tool into the crank arm, and if the puller strips the threads on the crank arm, you're hosed (unless you have a Hozan JIS thread cutter/helicoil kit).

The chain, although it's worn, doesn't need to be broken. I would inspect it for bent links, however. I would also inspect the chain rings for bent teeth, and readjust the front derailleur after re-installing the crank arm.

Edit: If you're uncomfortable with either removing a crank arm or breaking a chain, you should take your bike to a shop.

lordofthemark
06-02-2018, 06:48 AM
Step one. Check the chain.

It is stretched.

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Oddly though, the tool goes in more easily at the 1.0 mark, than at the .75 mark. Could that be because the tool is bent?


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lordofthemark
06-02-2018, 06:51 AM
So I need a new chain. The best outcome is I remove the chain (quite confident doing that with the standard chain breaking tool, since I will replace the chain anyway). Leave bike in the bike room, go to a bike shop (or REI) by car, get a new chain, and replace the chain myself (never done that, but the logical next step in my evolution as newbie amateur bike mechanic)

But. Everyone says with a worn chain, you need to check the cassette and crankset for wear.


So. Next step, look at the cassette and crankset for wear.

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17990

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The crankset is the one that was on the bike when I received it from Karen, and I have ridden it almost 6,000 miles since then. Not sure how many miles Karen had on the crankset. When I replaced the cassette last, I kept the crankset, in part because the least worn ring was the middle one, which is the one I usually ride (and almost always commute) in. Karen and I appear to have different riding styles, which turns out to have been good. As it happens, this Saturday I was riding in high gear on the crankset instead of middle gear (to bomb down George Mason, for my own meaning of bombing) and then, I guess, for whatever reason, went into low gear on the crankset going up the grade on North Hampton - which may have had an impact on what happened to the chain, I guess?

So I am resigned to a new crankset.

The cassette was new with the chain, so just under 3,200 miles. I would be somewhat more disappointed in needing a new cassette, especially if its my own fault for not checking the chain more often. OTOH I do shift the cassette a lot.

I MIGHT consider replacing the cassette myself, that's easier than replacing the crankset, right? But I don't think I want to mess with the crankset. I think I will need to take the bike into a shop, but would appreciate any advice (consensus preferred of course) before I go.

lordofthemark
06-02-2018, 07:13 AM
BTW we do have one of those crank arm puller things in the bike room. I mean IF people think the cassette is still okay, and suggest I follow Hozn's advice and keep this chain and run it down with the cassette, I suppose I could TRY removing the crankset myself. But I am nervous about doing it right, even supposing I am physically able to (haven't tried yet, so not sure how physically hard it is)

TwoWheelsDC
06-02-2018, 12:58 PM
So I need a new chain. The best outcome is I remove the chain (quite confident doing that with the standard chain breaking tool, since I will replace the chain anyway). Leave bike in the bike room, go to a bike shop (or REI) by car, get a new chain, and replace the chain myself (never done that, but the logical next step in my evolution as newbie amateur bike mechanic)

But. Everyone says with a worn chain, you need to check the cassette and crankset for wear.


So. Next step, look at the cassette and crankset for wear.

17989


17990

17991

The crankset is the one that was on the bike when I received it from Karen, and I have ridden it almost 6,000 miles since then. Not sure how many miles Karen had on the crankset. When I replaced the cassette last, I kept the crankset, in part because the least worn ring was the middle one, which is the one I usually ride (and almost always commute) in. Karen and I appear to have different riding styles, which turns out to have been good. As it happens, this Saturday I was riding in high gear on the crankset instead of middle gear (to bomb down George Mason, for my own meaning of bombing) and then, I guess, for whatever reason, went into low gear on the crankset going up the grade on North Hampton - which may have had an impact on what happened to the chain, I guess?

So I am resigned to a new crankset.

The cassette was new with the chain, so just under 3,200 miles. I would be somewhat more disappointed in needing a new cassette, especially if its my own fault for not checking the chain more often. OTOH I do shift the cassette a lot.

I MIGHT consider replacing the cassette myself, that's easier than replacing the crankset, right? But I don't think I want to mess with the crankset. I think I will need to take the bike into a shop, but would appreciate any advice (consensus preferred of course) before I go.

Replacing a square taper crankset is super easy (replacing most cranks is easy). Takes maybe 5 minutes once you figure out how to use the crank puller, and assuming you have a torque wrench. If replacing a cassette is a 3 on the difficulty scale, the crank is a 3.5.

YouTube will teach you....

n18
06-02-2018, 01:04 PM
The rear gears look worn to me. You need to determine if you have a cassette or freewheel. Here is a ParkTool page (https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/determining-cassette-freewheel-type) with video that helps, which also shows which lock ring tool that you need. Removing it is tough if you don't have the right tools. If it's a freewheel, the hardest part is removing the gears, I had to use a water pipe for leverage(Home depot sells (https://www.homedepot.com/p/LDR-Industries-3-4-in-x-2-ft-Galvanized-Steel-Schedule-40-Cut-Pipe-307-34X24/100561567) 2 feet pre-cut segment, just make sure that you get one wide enough for whatever wrench you are using). Here is a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVCOjZ4wCgA) showing this method. Some use a vise, which works fine, I have seen bike shop use that method. If it's a cassette, it is easy if you have a chain whip, here is a method (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0WpEKLClXc) by using an old chain if you don't have a chain whip.

lordofthemark
06-02-2018, 01:19 PM
Problem is, it's past 2, if I try doing it myself now, I miss the chance to take it to Phoenix bikes if I can't fix it. (Had to drive POTM somewhere). So I am go8ng to take it in.

Side benefit. QOTM: Most of your friends would just ride their other bike, right?

dkel
06-03-2018, 09:50 PM
So I am resigned to a new crankset.

I think you mean new chainrings. You shouldn’t have to replace the cranks, just the sprockets that attach to the spider.

DismalScientist
06-04-2018, 12:28 PM
Of course, often a set of chainrings cost more than a complete crankset.

n18
06-04-2018, 03:56 PM
How to measure Bolt Circle Diameter (BCD) for chainrings: Link1 (https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/pages/how-to-measure-bolt-circle-diameter-bcd), Link2 (https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-bcd.html)

Chainrings ar REI (https://www.rei.com/c/bike-chainrings?r=category%3Adrivetrain-components%7Cbike-chainrings&origin=web&ir=category%3Adrivetrain-components), Performance Bike (https://www.performancebike.com/shop/bike-parts-components/cranksets-chainrings-bottom-brackets/chainrings#facet:&productBeginIndex:0&facetLimit:&orderBy:5&pageView:grid&minPrice:&maxPrice:&pageSize:&), Spokes (https://spokesetc.com/product-list/parts-1051/chainrings-1058/).

If you need a new cassette, I had a good experience with Sunrace cassettes (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_st_price-asc-rank?keywords=sunrace+9+speed+cassette&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asunrace+9+speed+cassette&sort=price-asc-rank).

dkel
06-04-2018, 08:27 PM
Of course, often a set of chainrings cost more than a complete crankset.

My very cursory research seems to indicate that you’d have to really move up in quality on the rings for them to oputprice a crankset. It’s not difficult to get quality rings for $15 each; it would be a piece of junk triple crankset that costs less than $45.

Harry Meatmotor
06-05-2018, 09:55 AM
actually, Dkel - it's becoming the opposite case.

Replacing inexpensive chainrings is becoming increasingly difficult due to (lack of) parts availability. Sure, you could throw 3 new chainrings @ $15-30 a pop, but, for the most part, it's easier nowadays to track down a complete Tourney crankset (which are not junk; they're heavy, but they shift great and are plenty durable). Only if you're trying to match exact tooth counts across all rings would I recommend replacing individual rings. If you don't really care whether your middle ring is 34 or 36 tooth, I'd just go Tourney. It's shockingly inexpensive (https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Tourney-8-Speed-Crankset-Chainguard/dp/B06WW59T4K/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1528209766&sr=8-5&keywords=tourney+crankset) to replace the entire crankset.

phog
06-20-2018, 08:56 AM
Unless that chain is nearly new, I'd just break it and get a new one.

This! And, Daenaerys-style, leave that little section of chain in there, as a warning to other chains not to go there....

FFX_Hinterlands
06-20-2018, 03:33 PM
This! And, Daenaerys-style, leave that little section of chain in there, as a warning to other chains not to go there....

Add this to the list of "posts that make me snort/laugh and make my office mates look over to see if I'm OK."