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Judd
05-15-2018, 12:52 PM
I got one of the new Alexandria Bicycle Maps fresh from the printer last night. Look for them at a Bike To Work Day near yoooouuuu!

https://twitter.com/LumberjackCycle/status/996192806732431362

Emm
05-16-2018, 10:11 AM
One map gripe I have: They have markings for "steep hills", but don't place them in the places with steep hills. Let's get a draft from the city next time they do an update and plan a day or two to ride all the roads so we can help them properly identify the hills.

For example: Braddock Rd going west right after Russel Rd isn't marked as a steep hill--but that hill is ridiculously steep, and in the 2015 version of the map it is properly marked as such. And the part of Braddock they do mark as steep I'm not sure isn't nearly as hilly as the section they failed to mark. The small hill right outside my place on Valley Drive between Holmes and Gunston is considered steep on this year's map, while the rest of Valley Drive isn't, even though there are sections of it that are much worse than the area outside of my place (once again, it was marked correctly as all being hilly on the 2015 map...). And don't even get me started on Martha Custis, which is a giant steep hill, and isn't marked as such on this year's map.

KWL
05-16-2018, 11:03 AM
One map gripe I have: They have markings for "steep hills", but don't place them in the places with steep hills. Let's get a draft from the city next time they do an update and plan a day or two to ride all the roads so we can help them properly identify the hills...And don't even get me started on Martha Custis, which is a giant steep hill, and isn't marked as such on this year's map.Martha Custis isn't marked? That hill is what convinced me to trade in the 12-23 cassette on my new 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 from Spokes Etc. It's been a steep hill for decades and ain't getting flatter.

CaseyKane50
05-16-2018, 01:21 PM
One map gripe I have: They have markings for "steep hills", but don't place them in the places with steep hills. Let's get a draft from the city next time they do an update and plan a day or two to ride all the roads so we can help them properly identify the hills.

Good idea. Lots of input had been provided to City staff, but some of the input was lost in all of the staff transition that has taken place in the last year. I was surprised by how much was dropped from this map. There are enough errors on the map that maybe a revision will be in the cards.

peterw_diy
05-16-2018, 09:39 PM
The City's GIS division has data on both topography (e.g., https://www.alexandriava.gov/uploadedFiles/gis/Topography2014.pdf) and roadways - shouldn't this be a straightforward matter of deciding what grade percentage qualifies as steep and then relying on the data rather than volunteer feedback? It seems crazy to me as I review old versions that, for instance, Kennedy/Landover aren't marked as steep.

mstone
05-17-2018, 08:35 AM
The City's GIS division has data on both topography (e.g., https://www.alexandriava.gov/uploadedFiles/gis/Topography2014.pdf) and roadways - shouldn't this be a straightforward matter of deciding what grade percentage qualifies as steep and then relying on the data rather than volunteer feedback? It seems crazy to me as I review old versions that, for instance, Kennedy/Landover aren't marked as steep.

In general that data just doesn't work that well for determining how steep a short segment is.

peterw_diy
05-18-2018, 09:09 PM
In general that data just doesn't work that well for determining how steep a short segment is.
Surely that depends on the resolution of the topo data. If you had, say, one foot contour lines or one square foot LIDAR/elevation data, how could you not be able to derive a really good understanding of road slope? I don't know what the resolution of City data is, but I'm pretty sure it's a *lot* better than, say, a Forest Service printed hiking map.

mstone
05-21-2018, 06:39 AM
Surely that depends on the resolution of the topo data. If you had, say, one foot contour lines or one square foot LIDAR/elevation data, how could you not be able to derive a really good understanding of road slope?

Well, that's a big if. But sure, with perfect data you can do anything.

Judd
05-21-2018, 01:00 PM
I think everyone on BPAC would rather that the city engage for feedback than rely on the topographic maps.

Emm
05-21-2018, 01:05 PM
I think everyone on BPAC would rather that the city engage for feedback than rely on the topographic maps.

<like button>

I just think it'd be really fun to ride on EVERY SINGLE ROAD the city calls bike friendly, and then decide if we agreed with them or not :).

Judd
05-21-2018, 01:11 PM
<like button>

I just think it'd be really fun to ride on EVERY SINGLE ROAD the city calls bike friendly, and then decide if we agreed with them or not :).

ZOMG WSGFAB and do this.

lordofthemark
05-21-2018, 01:29 PM
ZOMG WSGFAB and do this.

We can spend days riding on every street in the City where there is any bike policy relevant question capable of being checked out by riding around, and we STILL won't have checked out as many as Casey Kane has. :)

komorebi
05-21-2018, 02:02 PM
<like button>

I just think it'd be really fun to ride on EVERY SINGLE ROAD the city calls bike friendly, and then decide if we agreed with them or not :).

Damnit, where is my ELITE button? We should definitely do this.

CaseyKane50
05-21-2018, 03:10 PM
We can spend days riding on every street in the City where there is any bike policy relevant question capable of being checked out by riding around, and we STILL won't have checked out as many as Casey Kane has. :)

Thanks LOTM, I have definitely ridden every street in the City with a hill that either has bike infrastructure or has been designated an on-street bike route. Sadly, the City has done a better job marking designated bike routes on maps, than they have on the actual streets.

CaseyKane50
05-21-2018, 03:17 PM
It seems crazy to me as I review old versions that, for instance, Kennedy/Landover aren't marked as steep.
There are lots of steep hills not marked. The bike map was only marking hills that either have bike infrastructure or were on designated bike routes. Currently, Kennedy and Landover don’t meet the criteria.

CaseyKane50
05-21-2018, 03:26 PM
<like button>

I just think it'd be really fun to ride on EVERY SINGLE ROAD the city calls bike friendly, and then decide if we agreed with them or not :).
Since we donít have buttons to click on, I will use my own scoring <TRIPLE LIKE>

I am sure the City will appreciate this kind of feed back. I will confirm how they would want hills to be rated and whether they would want to limit the rating to hills that have infrastructure or are currently rated as a designated bike route.

I am in for the ride.

Steve O
05-22-2018, 03:32 PM
I do not understand why hills would not be shown anyplace they exist. I have not seen the map, but I suspect it shows where there is bike infrastructure and where there is not. What would be the point of NOT showing a hill, regardless of whether the city has gotten around to making that particular street part of the bike infrastructure network?

CaseyKane50
05-22-2018, 04:05 PM
I do not understand why hills would not be shown anyplace they exist. I have not seen the map, but I suspect it shows where there is bike infrastructure and where there is not. What would be the point of NOT showing a hill, regardless of whether the city has gotten around to making that particular street part of the bike infrastructure network?

Donít know. I checked the Arlington map (http://www.bikearlington.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017BikeMap.pdf), the DC map (https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/dc_bike_map_2012_full_version.pdf), and the Fairfax map (http://fairfaxcountygis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=8a7ac4884e9c4c9bb37acc69dfb237a4) . Only Alexandria and Arlington flag hills on their maps and they only include hills that are on designated bike routes or that have some type of bike infrastructure. Fairfax and Washington have opted not to include hill details.

josh
05-22-2018, 04:25 PM
Don’t know. I checked the Arlington map (http://www.bikearlington.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017BikeMap.pdf), the DC map (https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/dc_bike_map_2012_full_version.pdf), and the Fairfax map (http://fairfaxcountygis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=8a7ac4884e9c4c9bb37acc69dfb237a4) . Only Alexandria and Arlington flag hills on their maps and they only include hills that are on designated bike routes or that have some type of bike infrastructure. Fairfax and Washington have opted not to include hill details.

These maps look busy enough as-is, I'm imagining a topo map overlaid (underlaid?) and it seems it would be nearly unintelligible. I haven't seen the Alexandria map, but I'd think that if the bike infrastructure is distributed well enough (big if) one could get a sense of the general topography even if only the bike route hills and such are marked.

peterw_diy
05-22-2018, 06:31 PM
These maps look busy enough as-is, I'm imagining a topo map overlaid (underlaid?) and it seems it would be nearly unintelligible.
The older versions laid simple V shapes pointing uphill. Here's how an older version indicated the steep drops on Braddock to Valley & Timber Branch:
17936

mstone
05-23-2018, 08:50 AM
These maps look busy enough as-is

^ this

komorebi
07-06-2018, 05:25 PM
I just think it'd be really fun to ride on EVERY SINGLE ROAD the city calls bike friendly, and then decide if we agreed with them or not :).

So I actually tried mapping this out, and it turned into a really interesting route optimization problem. I'm sure a GIS/mapping expert could do a better job, but here's one suggested route for all of the on-street bike routes, bike lanes, or shared lane markings south of King: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/27995029.

Anyone want to go for a bike ride this Sunday? :)

komorebi
07-06-2018, 08:38 PM
Anyone want to go for a bike ride this Sunday? :)

All right -- based on conversations at tonight's Fridays at the Fountain, it sounds like there's interest in doing this! Here's the plan: optional breakfast meetup at the Whole Foods on Duke Street at 8:30 a.m. on Sunday, roll out at 9:00 a.m. Bring sunscreen, a copy of the Alexandria bike map so that you can make notes about any errors on the map, and lots of patience (because I'm going to be slooooow on the hills).

lordofthemark
07-07-2018, 12:26 AM
So I actually tried mapping this out, and it turned into a really interesting route optimization problem. I'm sure a GIS/mapping expert could do a better job, but here's one suggested route for all of the on-street bike routes, bike lanes, or shared lane markings south of King: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/27995029.

Anyone want to go for a bike ride this Sunday? :)

I probably won't make it. Please feel free to ride very slowly on Seminary. There is discussion going on on Next door, and I am not happy. I am sure Jim will talk me down, but I am in the mood for a full on Critical Mass approach on Seminary.

CaseyKane50
07-07-2018, 04:12 PM
All right -- based on conversations at tonight's Fridays at the Fountain, it sounds like there's interest in doing this! Here's the plan: optional breakfast meetup at the Whole Foods on Duke Street at 8:30 a.m. on Sunday, roll out at 9:00 a.m. Bring sunscreen, a copy of the Alexandria bike map so that you can make notes about any errors on the map, and lots of patience (because I'm going to be slooooow on the hills).

I will be there, at least for the first hour of the ride. I will have extra copies of the current map with me.

Below is a table showing all of the streets or trails (hills were included that either noted bike infrastructure or on-street bike route) that were flagged as having hills in the Alexandria Bicycle Map published in 2015-2016 . Of note, six of the hills have earned the coveted double caret that seems to represent a steeper climb - Chambliss Trail, West Braddock (westbound between Russell and West Windsor), Howard, King (westbound between Russell and Upland), Mt. Ida (westbound between Commonwealth and Sycamore) and Walnut.




Street
Direction
Notes


Birch Street
Eastbound
Between Russell and Holly


Braddock Road, West
Eastbound
Between Beauregard and Hampton


Braddock Road, West
Westbound
Between Hampton and Beauregard


Braddock Road, West
Eastbound
Between North Van Dorn and Howard


Braddock Road, West
Westbound
Between Quaker and Early


Braddock Road, West
Westbound
Between Valley and Crest


Braddock Road, West
Eastbound
Between Valley and Cameron Mills


Braddock Road, West
Westbound
Between Russell and West Windsor (Two carets)


Campus Drive, East (Pvt.)
Westbound
Between Beauregard and Dawes


Chambliss, North
Southbound
Between Larstan and North Morgan


Chamblis, North Trail
Northbound
Between Doris and Grigsby (Two carets)


George Washington Masonic (Pvt.)
Westbound
Between Callahan and Upland


Gunston
Westbound
Between Martha Custis and Fitzgerald


Gunston
Eastbound
Between Valley and Fitzgerald


Howard, North
Northbound
Between Jordan and Seminary (Two carets)


Janney's
Westbound
Between Skyhill and Quaker


Janney's
Eastbound
Between West Taylor Run and King


King
Westbound
Between Russell and Upland (Two carets)


Monticello
Westbound
Between Russell and Old Dominion


Morgan, North
Westbound
Between Beauregard and North Chambliss


Mt. Ida
Eastbound
Between Russell and Holly


Mt. Ida
Westbound
Between Commonwealth and Sycamore (Two carets)


Old Dominion
Southbound
Between Chalfonte and Alison


Peagram, North
Northbound
Between Richenbacher and North Pickett


Seminary Road
Westbound
Between Quaker and Ft. Williams


Upland
Eastbound
Between Hilton and Hilltop Terrace


Upland
Southbound
Between King and Hilltop Terrace


Walnut
Southbound
Between Russell and King (Two carets)


Windsor, West
Westbound
Between Russell and Braddock

komorebi
07-07-2018, 11:08 PM
Below is a table showing all of the streets or trails (hills were included that either noted bike infrastructure or on-street bike route) that were flagged as having hills in the Alexandria Bicycle Map published in 2015-2016.

Interesting, thanks. For the part of the city that we'll be riding tomorrow, I noticed that two of the places previously marked as hills are no longer marked as such on the new map:



Street
Direction
Notes


Braddock Road, West
Westbound
Between Quaker and Early


Campus Drive, East (Pvt.)
Westbound
Between Beauregard and Dawes



I can't imagine that those hills suddenly got flatter in the past two years, but I guess we'll find out tomorrow. :rolleyes:

Judd
07-08-2018, 10:48 AM
Pre-ride strategy session.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180708/6113cf7dbc331d9ae352c02bffee0b5f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lordofthemark
07-09-2018, 09:52 AM
This was an absolutely terrific wonderful awesome ride. Even I (who like to ride in West Alex, and scout around for bike infra) got to ride places I have never ridden. And to ride with a group in places I have only ridden by myself. Weather was great, the company was even better. Thanks especially to Komorebi for intricate route plotting, and to Casey for added tidbits of transportation lore.

Looking forward to doing the east side.

Emm
07-09-2018, 12:57 PM
Couple photos. LSG also scouted out some trees. Reports will be sent to the City as well as feedback about the bike infrastructure ;).

And my bike found its soul mate off Seminary Road after the pedestrian overpass to nowhere. As LSG said "It has fenders too so it's a commuter car!"

And of course lunch at Port City.

Seriously awesome ride Komo, thank you again for organizing! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180709/5fb7a3de5778451680338bd24b38c401.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180709/b1cb2931925d813180860fad6bfc2bdf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180709/3efa45b6330b6ad5153ccef29cfeea73.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

komorebi
08-02-2018, 12:24 PM
If anyone wants to ride the rest of the bike map, I'll be doing that on Sunday. Optional breakfast meetup at the Whole Foods on Duke Street at 8:00 a.m. on Sunday, roll out at 8:30 a.m. Draft route is at https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28237147. I left out Old Town, because many of us are familiar enough with that area to provide feedback without needing to ride it again.

Also, if you have feedback about the map but can't make it on Sunday, PM me. I'm collecting feedback to give to City staff. Thanks.