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huskerdont
05-09-2017, 08:06 AM
Apologies that this is kinda long and involved; feel free to ignore if not your thing.

History:

1) Stupidly stated that 9-speed bike never needed adjusting.
2) Replaced OE rear derailleur with Sora. Worked okay ~1 year.
3) Installed replacement chain and cassette (SRAM 971, 11/28).
4) Broke chain on first ride. Lots of noise and a wreck; perhaps bent derailleur?
5) Bike shop replaced chain with random, unwrapped chain pulled out of the bin, assuring me it was a SRAM 951.
6) Installed replacement chain. Bike skipped in larger 3 or 4 cogs, no matter how adjusted. Sometimes it wanted to shift on its own, and sometimes it just jumped while staying on cog.
7) Discovered that random, out-of-bin chain had a sticky link. Thanks, LBS!
8) Purchased new SRAM 971 chain in actual original packaging Ö at a different shop.
9) No longer jumps, but still tries to shift or skip in larger cogs. Sora derailleur appears to have a lot of play in it--much more than Ultegra on other bike, but not sure what's normal for Sora.
10) Installed 10-speed Tiagra derailleur that was a spare to another bike. Shifts beautifully, except...
11) I can get it to shift up to the largest cog (28), or the smallest cog (11), but not both. Limits from limiting screws are fine--the derailleur can move to all positions, it just doesn't want to stay on the largest cog unless I adjust it so much that it won't go to the smallest.

Opted for the smallest cog since this is a triple and I can go to the small ring if needed. Barring other ideas, next step is to eventually take to shop to see if mount on frame is bent (no derailleur hanger). Mount could have been bent in wreck, and it maybe does look possibly a little wonky.

Or I could just ride it since itís now shifting like an (8-speed) dream.

EasyRider
05-09-2017, 08:12 AM
Could it be a shifter/rear derailleur compatibility issue?

huskerdont
05-09-2017, 08:37 AM
Could it be a shifter/rear derailleur compatibility issue?

It could be, though I would expect that if I were trying to use a 9-speed derailleur for a 10-speed setup instead of vice versa, plus it shifts so well in every other regard. This was a consideration before I threw this on there, and I read conflicting advice on forums about whether it would work due to spacing, but it does seem to shift well so I think the spacing issue isn't one. It's just hard to find non-Sora 9-speed derailleurs nowadays so I thought I'd try this. I'm certainly amenable to picking up a 9-speed if I can find something better than Sora.

drevil
05-09-2017, 08:44 AM
5) I've never seen a SRAM chain not say what model they are on each outer plate (like this (https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign.netdna-ssl.com/cdn/farfuture/mQg89nvUS90f0hQTq3L_pFSqKNLLyJjtpQyER5K2ZM0/mtime:1372788211/sites/default/files/images/products/chains/2012-pc_951_chain-no_desc-en.jpg)). Maybe they exist, but I've ne'er seen it.

I'm a mtb guy, so take this with a grain of salt, but I thought that 10-speed Dynasys used a different pull.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2011/10/19/question-can-i-use-9-speed-derailleurs-with-10-speed-shifters/
"JOE @ SHIMANO: Not really. Anything with Mega9 on it was designed to work together as a 9-speed system, and anything with DynaSys on it is 10-speed only. The cable pull ratio is different. The 10-speed stuff pulls a lot more cable, and the lever arm on the rear derailleur is much longer. We designed it this way so when you do your shifts from the smallest cog all the way up, the lever feel is the same all the way through the range. Also, the 9-speed was more of a universal system, too, but the DynaSys is an exclusive mountain bike system."

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html
"Shimano "Dyna-Sys" shifters and derailers use a longer cable pull than other Shimano models, and must be used together."

Crickey7
05-09-2017, 08:45 AM
You matched cage length?

In a totally unrelated bit of information, I have a brand new 10 speed Tiagra medium cage derailleur I'd let go for practically nothing.

EasyRider
05-09-2017, 08:51 AM
What shifter are you using?

huskerdont
05-09-2017, 08:51 AM
You matched cage length?

In a totally unrelated bit of information, I have a brand new 10 speed Tiagra medium cage derailleur I'd let go for practically nothing.

I believe the cage length is supposed to be fine for this cassette--28 on large cog.

If/when I replace, I'd like to do it with a 9 speed.

huskerdont
05-09-2017, 08:53 AM
What shifter are you using?

The 9-speed, I think it's Tiagra.

Harry Meatmotor
05-09-2017, 09:28 AM
This smells like a slightly tweaked RDer hanger.

Or, dirty/not-well-lubed cables and housing.

huskerdont
05-09-2017, 09:33 AM
This smells like a slightly tweaked RDer hanger.

Or, dirty/not-well-lubed cables and housing.

Thanks. Cable is new, so it's possible it's the hanger area/mount. Will take it in to have it looked at.

Thanks to everyone for their ideas.

ETA: (Poorly focused) pic of mounting area/RD:

14731

Drewdane
05-09-2017, 10:06 AM
Opted for the smallest cog since this is a triple and I can go to the small ring if needed. Barring other ideas, next step is to eventually take to different shop to see if mount on frame is bent (no derailleur hanger). Mount could have been bent in wreck, and it maybe does look possibly a little wonky.

Or I could just ride it since it’s now shifting like an (8-speed) dream.
I don't have any advice for you except the bolded bit.

huskerdont
05-09-2017, 10:28 AM
I don't have any advice for you except the bolded bit.

:) Yeah, this shop has been good to me over the years, doing things like replacing a shattered chain ring while I was at work, so this is why I didn't name names, and I'll eventually give them another chance. But I was disappointed. Maybe it was just this one mechanic. And I should have probably insisted on getting the same level of chain (and a new one), so it's partly on me.

EasyRider
05-09-2017, 01:38 PM
Limits from limiting screws are fine--the derailleur can move to all positions, it just doesn't want to stay on the largest cog unless I adjust it so much that it won't go to the smallest.

How are you accomplishing this?

huskerdont
05-09-2017, 02:11 PM
How are you accomplishing this?

With the adjuster.

EasyRider
05-09-2017, 02:48 PM
Your derailleur hanger doesn't really look bent to me, but as you say, not a great picture. Maybe, it's off a bit since your wreck. Certainly a bent hanger is a suspect, because ever since then, with new chains and new rear derailleurs and new cassettes, you've had trouble getting the chain onto the largest cogs and keeping it there.

No offense intended, but if it's not a bent derailleur hanger, I'd look at installation error, since you've replaced most everything else, and the problem you had with the Sora RD is now repeating itself with the Tiagra. Even improper pinch bolt orientation can influence shifting. If you've already followed the Big Blue Book to a 't', then disregard.

Re: the sticky link chain from the bin ... did the LBS install it for you, or did they sell it to you and you installed it yourself? I wouldn't be in a hurry to return to a shop that installed a new chain without checking it's operation through the range of gears -- especially if they knew the last chain had snapped in use and caused the bike to wreck!

Vicegrip
05-09-2017, 03:00 PM
A hanger can be bent enough to cause issues and not be visibly bent. A hanger checker in good hands is the way to tell. Sounds like 1. A mismatch between the index shifter and RD pull ratios. 2 slop in the system. 3. Something else not described but discover-able in person.

Bring it over. Much to my kids embarrassment I tend to yell "stump the chump" and general answers at the radio when I recover from laughing at/with Click and Clack the Tappet brothers.

hozn
05-09-2017, 03:03 PM
I don't think this is related, but it does look from your picture like you could probably back out your b-screw and get the RD guide wheel closer to the cogs.

I find the RD alignment tool is pretty handy. You are welcome to borrow mine if you want to swing by Westover.

Harry Meatmotor
05-09-2017, 06:19 PM
A hanger can be bent enough to cause issues and not be visibly bent. A hanger checker in good hands is the way to tell. Sounds like 1. A mismatch between the index shifter and RD pull ratios. 2 slop in the system. 3. Something else not described but discover-able in person.

Bring it over. Much to my kids embarrassment I tend to yell "stump the chump" and general answers at the radio when I recover from laughing at/with Click and Clack the Tappet brothers.

My GF thinks it's ridiculous when the caller says, "there's a chirping noise when I..."

And I immediately start yelling, "it's the tensioner pulley, it's the tensioner pulley!!!"

Or, "oh yeah, '06 Audi 1.8Ts have bad cam followers... DUH!"

Once a mechanic, always a mechanic...

huskerdont
05-10-2017, 07:42 AM
@ easyrider: I installed it, each time. Always have done chains myself and have never had problems. The first one broke far away from the quick link, so it wasn't due to some error of separating the links to shorten. The mech did question it, but looked and could see that. I think he probably also asked about chain length and crosschaining.

I don't have the Big Blue Book, but have Todd Down's Bicycling Maintenance Guide. I'm no real mechanic, just like to do things myself if I can, so I certainly could have done something wrong, for instance the b screw hozn mentions, which I played around with but probably don't have right.

@ vicegrip: will PM you back.

@ hozn: I think I'm going to get a RD alignment tool, eventually. I think you're right about the b-screw. I had put it further away because the pulley was very close to the largest cog; perhaps I got it too far away.

Rode the bike today and it shifted very nicely ... without me trying to get it into the largest cog, of course.

drevil
05-10-2017, 08:15 AM
@ easyrider: I installed it, each time. Always have done chains myself and have never had problems. The first one broke far away from the quick link, so it wasn't due to some error of separating the links to shorten. The mech did question it, but looked and could see that. I think he probably also asked about chain length and crosschaining.

I don't have the Big Blue Book, but have Todd Down's Bicycling Maintenance Guide. I'm no real mechanic, just like to do things myself if I can, so I certainly could have done something wrong, for instance the b screw hozn mentions, which I played around with but probably don't have right.

@ vicegrip: will PM you back.

@ hozn: I think I'm going to get a RD alignment tool, eventually. I think you're right about the b-screw. I had put it further away because the pulley was very close to the largest cog; perhaps I got it too far away.

Rode the bike today and it shifted very nicely ... without me trying to get it into the largest cog, of course.

My wife was bending her rear derailleur hangers (and occasionally derailleurs) every few months, which led me to getting my very own Park DAG 2.2 (Derailleur Alignment Gauge). Now, I rarely need it. I think she's learning to crash on her left side more... ;)

huskerdont
05-10-2017, 08:19 AM
My wife was bending her rear derailleur hangers (and occasionally derailleurs) every few months, which led me to getting my very own Park DAG 2.2 (Derailleur Alignment Gauge). Now, I rarely need it. I think she's learning to crash on her left side more... ;)

By the way, I meant to comment on your earlier comment. I had not checked the stamping on the side of the chain---it's something I can't see without me specs. If the chain is still in the trash, I'll check it. But whether it was a 951 or not, since I had purchased a new 971, I probably should have insisted on getting another new 971.

ian74
05-10-2017, 10:18 AM
Apologies that this is kinda long and involved; feel free to ignore if not your thing.

History:

.
.
.
5) Bike shop replaced chain with random, unwrapped chain pulled out of the bin, assuring me it was a SRAM 951.
6) Installed replacement chain. Bike skipped in larger 3 or 4 cogs, no matter how adjusted. Sometimes it wanted to shift on its own, and sometimes it just jumped while staying on cog.
7) Discovered that random, out-of-bin chain had a sticky link. Thanks, LBS!
8) Purchased new SRAM 971 chain in actual original packaging Ö at a different shop.
9) No longer jumps, but still tries to shift or skip in larger cogs. Sora derailleur appears to have a lot of play in it--much more than Ultegra on other bike, but not sure what's normal for Sora.
.
.


Are you me??? I'm going through something fun like this as well! I had a chain and cassette replaced 2 weeks ago. I was having occasional skipping and there were lots of miles on them. I went with a luxurious Sun Race cassette (mistake no. 1). That thing is flimsy and flexy and I was having these same type of shifting issues, hopping multiple cogs, hanging on particular cogs and tick tick ticking. I have a deore rear der. and microshit bar ends. I went back to the shop twice and had them adjust it, and on the stand it shifted OK, but while riding it kept doing this. Yesterday went to a different shop and we tried a different cassette (SRAM), replaced the shifter cable, and the guy spent like 30 minutes trying to dial it in, seemed ok, but 2 blocks out of the shop, same problems. Hey at least it only cost me $80! (I envy anyone who can do the work themselves). He did show me that the freehub body moved the tiniest bit when he removed the cassette and said might be the issue, also said I might have to replace the whole wheel??, and he said the Sunrace cassette was properly spaced. So, two shops can't index my rear. My solution was to set my microshift bar end to friction shifting. I guess I have to live with this, it's not bad, but is just using the friction shifting a bypass for something that might be a serious problem? There was a couple of skips this morning when I took off from a stop at the bottom of a couple of hills. I'm hoping that's just because I'm still getting used to friction shifting.

Let me know when you solve this! (and let me know what shop figures it out!). Good luck huskerdoug.

/end threadhijack

huskerdont
05-10-2017, 10:32 AM
Are you me??? I'm going through something fun like this as well! I had a chain and cassette replaced 2 weeks ago. I was having occasional skipping and there were lots of miles on them. I went with a luxurious Sun Race cassette (mistake no. 1). That thing is flimsy and flexy and I was having these same type of shifting issues, hopping multiple cogs, hanging on particular cogs and tick tick ticking. I have a deore rear der. and microshit bar ends. I went back to the shop twice and had them adjust it, and on the stand it shifted OK, but while riding it kept doing this. Yesterday went to a different shop and we tried a different cassette (SRAM), replaced the shifter cable, and the guy spent like 30 minutes trying to dial it in, seemed ok, but 2 blocks out of the shop, same problems. Hey at least it only cost me $80! (I envy anyone who can do the work themselves). He did show me that the freehub body moved the tiniest bit when he removed the cassette and said might be the issue, also said I might have to replace the whole wheel??, and he said the Sunrace cassette was properly spaced. So, two shops can't index my rear. My solution was to set my microshift bar end to friction shifting. I guess I have to live with this, it's not bad, but is just using the friction shifting a bypass for something that might be a serious problem? There was a couple of skips this morning when I took off from a stop at the bottom of a couple of hills. I'm hoping that's just because I'm still getting used to friction shifting.

Let me know when you solve this! (and let me know what shop figures it out!). Good luck huskerdoug.

/end threadhijack

If the freehub is loose, you may be able to see the cassette "wobble" when it spins, and that wobble could cause those problems. I have had this happen. I'm surprised he didn't tighten it while there. But I'm no expert so maybe it's a type that isn't easy to tighten or maybe the thing is going, esp. since he mentioned needing to replace the wheel. Good luck--you have a lot of hills on your commute and it's frustrating when the bike skips on hills.

anomad
05-10-2017, 11:31 AM
Are you me??? I'm going through something fun like this as well! I had a chain and cassette replaced 2 weeks ago. I was having occasional skipping and there were lots of miles on them. I went with a luxurious Sun Race cassette (mistake no. 1). That thing is flimsy and flexy and I was having these same type of shifting issues, hopping multiple cogs, hanging on particular cogs and tick tick ticking. I have a deore rear der. and microshit bar ends. I went back to the shop twice and had them adjust it, and on the stand it shifted OK, but while riding it kept doing this. Yesterday went to a different shop and we tried a different cassette (SRAM), replaced the shifter cable, and the guy spent like 30 minutes trying to dial it in, seemed ok, but 2 blocks out of the shop, same problems. Hey at least it only cost me $80! (I envy anyone who can do the work themselves). He did show me that the freehub body moved the tiniest bit when he removed the cassette and said might be the issue, also said I might have to replace the whole wheel??, and he said the Sunrace cassette was properly spaced. So, two shops can't index my rear. My solution was to set my microshift bar end to friction shifting. I guess I have to live with this, it's not bad, but is just using the friction shifting a bypass for something that might be a serious problem? There was a couple of skips this morning when I took off from a stop at the bottom of a couple of hills. I'm hoping that's just because I'm still getting used to friction shifting.

Let me know when you solve this! (and let me know what shop figures it out!). Good luck huskerdoug.

/end threadhijack

Any mechanic that just blindly replaces parts until its fixed should be avoided like the plague.

If it all shifted and rode ok before the first swap there's something fishy going on. I can take a look at it next time our homeward schedules intersect.

ian74
05-10-2017, 12:17 PM
Any mechanic that just blindly replaces parts until its fixed should be avoided like the plague.

If it all shifted and rode ok before the first swap there's something fishy going on. I can take a look at it next time our homeward schedules intersect.

Damn! Now I have to avoid myself!!!!

anomad
05-10-2017, 12:49 PM
Damn! Now I have to avoid myself!!!!

People avoid me too, but for different reasons...

huskerdont
05-10-2017, 05:14 PM
5) I've never seen a SRAM chain not say what model they are on each outer plate (like this (https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign.netdna-ssl.com/cdn/farfuture/mQg89nvUS90f0hQTq3L_pFSqKNLLyJjtpQyER5K2ZM0/mtime:1372788211/sites/default/files/images/products/chains/2012-pc_951_chain-no_desc-en.jpg)). Maybe they exist, but I've ne'er seen it.


So yeah, no SRAM stamp on any kind on that random out-of-the-bin chain. In my present mood I'd take the chain in and drop it on the counter as a free return, but since I doubt I'll remember which mech it was, I'm sure my cooler head will prevail.

huskerdont
05-12-2017, 07:25 AM
Okay, so there was the bad chain. Then there was the torqued/worn out rear mech. Vicegrip demonstrated with this Park DAG 2 that the derailleur hanger (actually the frame mount) was bent (Thank you, vicegrip!). It's a wonder that bike shifted at all.

Also, the pull ratios are indeed off for a 10-speed mech with 9-speed shifters/cassettes. Still works better than the Sora that was on it, but I'll be casually looking around for a higher-grade than Sora 9 speed mech. (And will be picking up a Park DAG 2.2 now that I know how to use it.)

The other option would be to convert this bike to a 10-speed, but since I already have 10-speed and 11-speed bikes, I don't think I'll do that.

drevil
05-12-2017, 08:53 AM
Okay, so there was the bad chain. Then there was the torqued/worn out rear mech. Vicegrip demonstrated with this Park DAG 2 that the derailleur hanger (actually the frame mount) was bent (Thank you, vicegrip!). It's a wonder that bike shifted at all.

Also, the pull ratios are indeed off for a 10-speed mech with 9-speed shifters/cassettes. Still works better than the Sora that was on it, but I'll be casually looking around for a higher-grade than Sora 9 speed mech. (And will be picking up a Park DAG 2.2 now that I know how to use it.)

The other option would be to convert this bike to a 10-speed, but since I already have 10-speed and 11-speed bikes, I don't think I'll do that.

I'm glad you figured it out. I think the moral of the story is to not crash ;)

Last year I tried to ride across a log skinny in the rain on my newish SRAM XX1 equipped bike. I slipped, landing square on my rear derailleur, bending teeth of the cog ($300+), the hanger ($25), and loosening the pivots of the derailleur ($220+). I was all:

14745

I got the hanger trued, straightened the teeth (but ended up getting a new cassette a few months later for unrelated reasons), but couldn't do much for the derailleur. It still doesn't shift 100%, but I just figure that's the cost of riding across slippery logs in the rain :o

EasyRider
05-12-2017, 08:54 AM
Glad you got it resolved! You were able to straighten the hanger and can now access all 9 cogs?

huskerdont
05-12-2017, 09:04 AM
Glad you got it resolved! You were able to straighten the hanger and can now access all 9 cogs?

It's better, but it wants to slip off the larger cog under load so it's set to work with the bottom 8 cogs instead. Will need to find a good quality 9-speed mech for it to work on all cogs. Since it's a triple, it's no big deal, and I have other bikes for climbing expeditions anyway.

Judd
05-12-2017, 09:36 AM
It's better, but it wants to slip off the larger cog under load so it's set to work with the bottom 8 cogs instead. Will need to find a good quality 9-speed mech for it to work on all cogs. Since it's a triple, it's no big deal, and I have other bikes for climbing expeditions anyway.

More important question: Did Vicegrip let you ride his horse?

huskerdont
05-12-2017, 09:43 AM
More important question: Did Vicegrip let you ride his horse?

The man has many fine steeds, but the weather was mucky and it would have been poor form.

Vicegrip
05-12-2017, 09:53 AM
More important question: Did Vicegrip let you ride his horse?Wait, What ?! :D.....:confused:

huskerdont
05-12-2017, 10:01 AM
Wait, What ?! :D.....:confused:

The title to my ride on Strava had been "Went to see a man about a horse," an old blues euphemism that I meant to be a play on words.

Judd is just being Judd and confusing people for fun.