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rayatkinson
02-08-2017, 10:44 AM
Arlington County is hosting an open house to discuss plans for Capital Bikeshare expansion along the Mount Vernon Trail at Gravelly Point and Roosevelt Island and wants your input. Learn more about the planned stations and provide your thoughts at the open house or through this survey (https://goo.gl/2oeINA) (https://goo.gl/2oeINA).

Date: Thursday, March 2, 2017
Time: 7-8:30pm
Location: 2100 Clarendon Blvd., Azalea Room on the 1st floor lobby

Contact: Ray Atkinson
Capital Bikeshare Planner
Arlington County
703-587-8392
ray@metrobike.net

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bobco85
02-08-2017, 11:16 AM
I'm getting asked for a username and password in order to view the survey. Do I just use my normal Google login information?

rayatkinson
02-08-2017, 11:22 AM
I'm getting asked for a username and password in order to view the survey. Do I just use my normal Google login information?

I have programmed the survey (https://goo.gl/2oeINA) (https://goo.gl/2oeINA) to not require a username and password so you should be able to complete the survey without needing to log into your Google account. Are you still being asked for a username and password to view the survey?

EasyRider
02-08-2017, 12:11 PM
Ray, thanks for the opportunity to register an opinion. I've long been baffled by the addition of portable toilets in that location, for reasons of safety and aesethetics. So I don't think a Bikeshare station right next to them is a great idea, either. The north or west sides of the parking lot is where I'd like to see a Bikeshare station. And the toilets.

LeprosyStudyGroup
02-08-2017, 12:49 PM
Cabi stations need to be located everywhere in places that do not result in casual users stopping and standing around in the trail itself. Gravelly Point is already one of the worst spots in the region for this behavior, and placing a Cabi dock directly adjacent the trail like that will only make it worse. Gravelly Point is a great place to have a station, but it should be put on the perimeter of the parking lot visible from but recognizably away from the trail. The same goes for just about everywhere else whenever possible.

Sunyata
02-08-2017, 12:55 PM
Ray, thanks for the opportunity to register an opinion. I've long been baffled by the addition of portable toilets in that location, for reasons of safety and aesethetics. So I don't think a Bikeshare station right next to them is a great idea, either. The north or west sides of the parking lot is where I'd like to see a Bikeshare station. And the toilets.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Although, I added in my comments about sanitary reasons regarding the toilets. (eww! :confused: )

AFHokie
02-08-2017, 01:25 PM
If I recall correctly from an airfield planning course I sat through many years ago, the Gravelly location is probably within the critical area immediately off the end of the runway which would likely require FAA approval as well

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Emm
02-08-2017, 02:04 PM
Cabi stations need to be located everywhere in places that do not result in casual users stopping and standing around in the trail itself. Gravelly Point is already one of the worst spots in the region for this behavior, and placing a Cabi dock directly adjacent the trail like that will only make it worse. Gravelly Point is a great place to have a station, but it should be put on the perimeter of the parking lot visible from but recognizably away from the trail. The same goes for just about everywhere else whenever possible.

I strongly agree with this, and I filled out the survey expressing as much. This spot is unsafe, especially if it gets used by tourists or others not very familiar with biking on MUPs. I bike through there on my commute--between people using the port-o-potties, children running around, and tourists crossing the trail without looking, it's the worst spot on my commute. It also generally just smells bad, which isn't fun! I think somewhere close to the trail but in the parking lot might be better.

bobco85
02-08-2017, 03:28 PM
The parking lot sounds like a much better spot for a CaBi station. My recommendation is here (the 3 diagonal parking spots directly in front of the camera): https://goo.gl/maps/aerpZgq5bzj It'd be clearly visible from the trail and parking lot, so users would be able to see it with little trouble.

rayatkinson
02-08-2017, 04:03 PM
Ray, thanks for the opportunity to register an opinion. I've long been baffled by the addition of portable toilets in that location, for reasons of safety and aesethetics. So I don't think a Bikeshare station right next to them is a great idea, either. The north or west sides of the parking lot is where I'd like to see a Bikeshare station. And the toilets.

Thank you for sharing your opinion! Arlington County is coordinating with the National Park Service and Motivate, who operates Capital Bikeshare, to site the new station in the best location possible. We previously sited the station on the north side of the parking lot before moving the station to the current location. Due to federal law that requires an uninterrupted capitol viewshed along the George Washington Memorial Parkway, the National Park Service asked us to move the station east of the portable toilets so we moved the station to the current location. If we can find a location that isn't in the capitol viewshed, we are still considering the possibility of siting the station on the west side of the parking lot. Do you prefer any specific locations on the west side of the parking lot?

Since we were trying to site the station closer to the Gravelly Point access road, we asked the National Park Service whether they were open to moving the portable toilets closer to the access road so we could move the station closer to the access road. We learned that the portable toilets are not able to be moved anywhere. However, we were able to get the trash cans, which are located on the east side of the portable toilets, moved to a new location so we can install the station on the east side of the portable toilets. While we are currently planning to install the station on the east side of the portable toilets, we are open to changing the station location so feel free to share your thoughts.

rayatkinson
02-08-2017, 04:38 PM
Cabi stations need to be located everywhere in places that do not result in casual users stopping and standing around in the trail itself. Gravelly Point is already one of the worst spots in the region for this behavior, and placing a Cabi dock directly adjacent the trail like that will only make it worse. Gravelly Point is a great place to have a station, but it should be put on the perimeter of the parking lot visible from but recognizably away from the trail. The same goes for just about everywhere else whenever possible.

Thank you for sharing! I'm going to refer to the below photo in my reply. Currently, bikes would be accessed from the south side of the station, which faces towards the trail. We understand this could result in conflicts for trail users and station users so we are looking at several alternative options for the Gravelly Point station. One option is to rotate the current station 180 degrees so the bikes would be accessed from the north side of the station (away from the trail). Another option is to move the station to a new location. Do you like one of these options? If so, why do you like the option?

You wrote how you would put the station "on the perimeter of the parking lot visible from but recognizably away from the trail." We previously sited the station on the north side of the parking lot before moving the station to the current location. Due to federal law that requires an uninterrupted capitol viewshed along the George Washington Memorial Parkway, the National Park Service asked us to move the station east of the portable toilets so we moved the station to the current location. If we can find a location that isn't in the capitol viewshed, we are still considering the possibility of siting the station on the west side of the parking lot. Do you prefer any specific locations on the perimeter of the parking lot?

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rayatkinson
02-08-2017, 05:11 PM
If I recall correctly from an airfield planning course I sat through many years ago, the Gravelly location is probably within the critical area immediately off the end of the runway which would likely require FAA approval as well

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930AZ using Tapatalk

You are correct. We are working through the proper channels to get approval to install the station. If you would like to share thoughts about the Gravelly Point and Roosevelt Island stations, feel free to share them here or through this survey (https://goo.gl/2oeINA) (https://goo.gl/2oeINA). Thank you for sharing!

bobco85
02-08-2017, 06:35 PM
Here's where I think the station could go without much trouble (the image is to scale). The pic shows both the proposed site and my idea which would be to use some parking spaces (yellow is access area, blue is station area):
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Btw, I was able to access the survey from home. Turns out my office doesn't like Google Docs, so that's why it was asking for a username and password.

KLizotte
02-08-2017, 07:04 PM
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No, no, no!!!!!!!!! That is the worst possible spot. That area is total chaos during daylight hours all day on weekends and afternoons/evenings during the week. It is like proposing a bus stop in the middle of Times Square. I thought Gravelly Pt was supposed to get a new bike path that led away from the crowds? We need that more than a Cabi station.

How about locating the station near the boat ramp or the other side of the intersection from the toilets.

The NPS is concerned about blocking the view but unconcerned about stinky, unsanitary port-o-potties?! Bizarre.

Judd
02-08-2017, 08:28 PM
I responded to the survey. I share the general sentiment that the proposed site at Gravelly Point is the worst possible location that could be chosen. I appreciate the opportunity to provide feedback.

scoot
02-09-2017, 12:53 AM
How about the SW corner of the parking lot? Still close enough for easy visibility and trail access without being so close as to be hazardous. Also a more pleasant experience for CaBi employees to rebalance than next to the toilets (though this station shouldn't need much service)

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rayatkinson
02-21-2017, 02:49 PM
No, no, no!!!!!!!!! That is the worst possible spot. That area is total chaos during daylight hours all day on weekends and afternoons/evenings during the week. It is like proposing a bus stop in the middle of Times Square. I thought Gravelly Pt was supposed to get a new bike path that led away from the crowds? We need that more than a Cabi station.

How about locating the station near the boat ramp or the other side of the intersection from the toilets.

The NPS is concerned about blocking the view but unconcerned about stinky, unsanitary port-o-potties?! Bizarre.

The below illustration shows an updated version of the proposed Gravelly Point station. I would like to get your and everyone else's feedback. We are still negotiating with the NPS and Motivate (Capital Bikeshare operator) so the below illustration isn't final. I read everyone's concerns about the station being located near the portable restrooms and close to the trail so I moved the station further from the trail and rotated it 180 degrees, which means people will access the bikes from the north (field) side of the station. Due to few alternative locations, we haven't been able to move the station away from the portable restrooms. What do you think about the new proposed Gravelly Point station?

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EasyRider
02-21-2017, 03:41 PM
Ray, thanks for trying.

Is this correct: NPS is asking that the Bikeshare station be placed east of the portable toilets in the primo spot for plane watching, because those toilets are already blocking the drivers' views of the city from the GW Parkway. The overriding site location consideration is not safety or accessibility, but preserving an unobstructed view west (except for the toilets) for drivers on the parkway (who should be looking north and south).

Tim Kelley
02-21-2017, 03:45 PM
Perhaps Ray can correct me or add something to this, but I heard there was an issue with getting the flatbed crane truck in.

Because the crane would temporarily (like 3 minutes) need to be extended to unload the docks, it would conflict with the flight paths.

If this seems crazy and silly to you, we're in the same boat.

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KLizotte
02-21-2017, 04:09 PM
The below illustration shows an updated version of the proposed Gravelly Point station. I would like to get your and everyone else's feedback. We are still negotiating with the NPS and Motivate (Capital Bikeshare operator) so the below illustration isn't final. I read everyone's concerns about the station being located near the portable restrooms and close to the trail so I moved the station further from the trail and rotated it 180 degrees, which means people will access the bikes from the north (field) side of the station. Due to few alternative locations, we haven't been able to move the station away from the portable restrooms. What do you think about the new proposed Gravelly Point station?

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Nope, no, nada, non, and nyet. Still an absolutely *terrible* spot.

It's very dangerous for cyclists to go through that area today because

1) People are coming in and out of the port-o-potties without looking (and probably suffering from oxygen loss due to holding their breath).

2) Tourists wander all over the MUP like zombies even when big shiny objects are rolling straight at them and making lots of noise - ding, ding, ding (how these tourist managed to actually drive to Gravelly point safely always baffles me). Seriously, they look at you and simply do not comprehend that they are on the wrong side and need to move or else they simply just stand in the middle of the MUP when there is grass right over there!

3) Tourists and regulars alike routinely allow their children to lie down, play, and walk unimpeded along the MUP in that area like it's a playground (I've had to weave around at least ten scooters lying on the MUP over the last four years; I once saw someone lay out a picnic blanket across the MUP by the trash cans).

4) Even informed visitors get caught up watching the planes and walk around like zombies.

5) Cyclists and runners don't always behave well themselves (usually in a hurry during the afternoon commute); I've seen a couple of collisions that did not end well right in front of the trash cans.

6) People taking out a Cabi are often wobbly for a bit till they get used to the bike (just this weekend a guy on a Cabi went very wide on a MUP turn and I had to slam on the brakes in order to avoid a head-on collision; he simply looked at me blankly, didn't apologize, slow down or even touch his brakes). Cabi riders, esp those unfamiliar with MUPs and the general area pose a risk to other MUP users.

Do not bring on the zombie apocalypse!!!! Even if you have to move the station so that it is further north and people have to walk a bit is preferable.

rayatkinson
02-21-2017, 04:45 PM
Ray, thanks for trying.

Is this correct: NPS is asking that the Bikeshare station be placed east of the portable toilets in the primo spot for plane watching, because those toilets are already blocking the drivers' views of the city from the GW Parkway. The overriding site location consideration is not safety or accessibility, but preserving an unobstructed view west (except for the toilets) for drivers on the parkway (who should be looking north and south).

Since the capitol viewshed is required to be preserved by federal law, the toilets can't be blocking the capitol viewshed unless the toilets were grandfathered in like the Gravelly Point parking lot. While cars parked in the Gravelly Point parking lot likely would be blocking the capitol viewshed, I heard that the Gravelly Point parking lot was built before the capitol viewshed was created so it was grandfathered in.

We (Arlington and Motivate) have been discussing with the NPS about safety and accessibility concerns, which the updated station location that I shared today tries to resolve. We believe this shows that preserving the capitol viewshed, which is federal law, isn't the overriding site location consideration. We all want the station to be in a safe and accessible location.

rayatkinson
02-21-2017, 04:59 PM
Perhaps Ray can correct me or add something to this, but I heard there was an issue with getting the flatbed crane truck in.

Because the crane would temporarily (like 3 minutes) need to be extended to unload the docks, it would conflict with the flight paths.

If this seems crazy and silly to you, we're in the same boat.

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Yes, you are correct. While Paul (my boss) has been directly trying to resolve this issue, he informed me about what is happening. Due to airport regulations, Motivate (Capital Bikeshare operator) can't use the flatbed crane for station installation so Motivate plans to use a hand truck to carry two docks of the station in during each load. We (Arlington) adjusted our station equipment order for Gravelly Point to request all two-dock plates, which are more expensive, instead of the normal and cheaper four-dock plates. While the airport regulations make sense to me, it has made coordinating the station install more complicated than normal.

rayatkinson
02-21-2017, 05:20 PM
Nope, no, nada, non, and nyet. Still an absolutely *terrible* spot.

It's very dangerous for cyclists to go through that area today because

1) People are coming in and out of the port-o-potties without looking (and probably suffering from oxygen loss due to holding their breath).

2) Tourists wander all over the MUP like zombies even when big shiny objects are rolling straight at them and making lots of noise - ding, ding, ding (how these tourist managed to actually drive to Gravelly point safely always baffles me). Seriously, they look at you and simply do not comprehend that they are on the wrong side and need to move or else they simply just stand in the middle of the MUP when there is grass right over there!

3) Tourists and regulars alike routinely allow their children to lie down, play, and walk unimpeded along the MUP in that area like it's a playground (I've had to weave around at least ten scooters lying on the MUP over the last four years; I once saw someone lay out a picnic blanket across the MUP by the trash cans).

4) Even informed visitors get caught up watching the planes and walk around like zombies.

5) Cyclists and runners don't always behave well themselves (usually in a hurry during the afternoon commute); I've seen a couple of collisions that did not end well right in front of the trash cans.

6) People taking out a Cabi are often wobbly for a bit till they get used to the bike (just this weekend a guy on a Cabi went very wide on a MUP turn and I had to slam on the brakes in order to avoid a head-on collision; he simply looked at me blankly, didn't apologize, slow down or even touch his brakes). Cabi riders, esp those unfamiliar with MUPs and the general area pose a risk to other MUP users.

Do not bring on the zombie apocalypse!!!! Even if you have to move the station so that it is further north and people have to walk a bit is preferable.

Thank you for sharing your concerns. I also frequently use the Mount Vernon Trail and other trails in the DC region so I'm familiar with your concerns. The station location isn't final so we are still taking public input. Regarding your statement, "Even if you have to move the station so that it is further north and people have to walk a bit is preferable," how far north do you want the station?

One thing to consider when thinking about how far north you want the station to be is that the concrete pad has to be extended further north as well. This means more natural area has to be covered with concrete, which isn't good for the environment. Would you prefer the concrete pad to be extended further north or for us to find another location for the Gravelly Point station?

You previously wrote, "How about locating the station near the boat ramp or the other side of the intersection from the toilets." My concerns with locating the station near the boat ramp is the station may not be visible enough to find from the trail and may not be located conveniently enough for trail users. Do you think trail users can see the boat ramp from the trail and are willing to walk far off the trail to access the station?

Regarding the other side of the intersection from the toilets, this location would block the capitol viewshed, which is required by federal law. Yes, it has been challenging to find a workable location for the Gravelly Point station.

Steve O
02-21-2017, 11:11 PM
Is the entirety of the parking lot in the viewshed? I would suspect that there is some sort of diagonal line that defines the eastern edge. If we could learn where that line is, there may be places on the parking lot itself that would be both out of the viewshed and relatively convenient to the trail. Without knowing exactly where the viewshed ends makes it difficult to suggest other locations.

Another option would be to move it a good 50 yards to the east, completely away from the most congested area.

dbb
02-22-2017, 06:47 AM
The NPS might want to look at the environmental review (I think it was an EA) they did a few years back about Gravelly Point. One of the key points in that study was an attempt to deconflict all of the uses at that particular location.

With all the development along the waterfront in SW DC, much of the viewshed has been compromised.

LeprosyStudyGroup
02-22-2017, 07:16 AM
Thanks for your work on this stuff and for reaching out about this project Ray. It seems tough.

Looks to me like the project is stuck with no workable alternatives to a bad design, and no exceptions are able to be made to locate it in a more practical area (none of which I'd blame anybody working on the project for). I'm a bit confused as to why "the public" is being asked for input if it can't actually be moved but a few feet from where it is already planned. I'd rather not see a cabi station at the location at all than deal with the daily conflicts and ill will that people using, and bikeshare vans servicing, a cabi station in that location is going to generate. It sucks for everybody in the end. So when can we expect the thing to be installed :rolleyes:?

scoot
02-22-2017, 09:32 AM
Is the entirety of the parking lot in the viewshed? I would suspect that there is some sort of diagonal line that defines the eastern edge. If we could learn where that line is, there may be places on the parking lot itself that would be both out of the viewshed and relatively convenient to the trail. Without knowing exactly where the viewshed ends makes it difficult to suggest other locations.

+1. Is there a map that defines the capitol viewshed boundaries through this park? If that can be obtained and shared here, this community could reach a consensus suggestion pretty quickly.

rayatkinson
02-22-2017, 09:37 AM
Is the entirety of the parking lot in the viewshed? I would suspect that there is some sort of diagonal line that defines the eastern edge. If we could learn where that line is, there may be places on the parking lot itself that would be both out of the viewshed and relatively convenient to the trail. Without knowing exactly where the viewshed ends makes it difficult to suggest other locations.

Another option would be to move it a good 50 yards to the east, completely away from the most congested area.

I never received the exact location of the capitol viewshed so I'm researching the exact location. I'll share it with you when I find the exact location. I agree this should help everyone suggest alternative locations for the Gravelly Point station.

rayatkinson
02-22-2017, 09:38 AM
+1. Is there a map that defines the capitol viewshed boundaries through this park? If that can be obtained and shared here, this community could reach a consensus suggestion pretty quickly.

I never received the exact location of the capitol viewshed so I'm researching the exact location. I'll share it with you when I find the exact location. I agree this should help everyone suggest alternative locations for the Gravelly Point station.

Judd
03-19-2018, 11:27 AM
Saw a rendering of this station on Twitter. Tucked behind the portapotties and includes a pad to avoid docking on the trail.

https://twitter.com/wbjneibs/status/975754687243792384?s=21


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Judd
03-19-2018, 11:31 AM
Also interesting that they used the bike in bloom bike for the Gravelly Point rendering.


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rayatkinson
03-19-2018, 07:14 PM
Thanks for sharing the tweet. The renderings look interesting.

huskerdont
07-25-2018, 08:39 AM
Yesterday they were installing the Cabi station at Roosevelt Island:

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Those poor parking spaces, spoiled.

ursus
07-25-2018, 11:38 AM
It's complete

https://twitter.com/bikeshare/status/1022156593553727489

rcannon100
07-25-2018, 03:21 PM
Those poor parking spaces, spoiled.

Yeah the whining on FB was hilarious.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3d2f4f9958455ad29dfddc58f31bf257

CaseyKane50
10-22-2018, 10:49 AM
Arlington County staff were preparing the ground for the concrete pad to accommodate the Bikeshare station at Gravelly Point this morning.

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Judd
10-22-2018, 11:15 AM
Arlington County staff were preparing the ground for the concrete pad to accommodate the Bikeshare station at Gravelly Point this morning.

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Hooray! This is going to fill a pretty big gap between DC and Crystal City. I hope it leads to more Gravelly Point visitors deciding to hop on a bike and take a ride.

Is it okay if I steal these pictures to post on the Friends of the MVT social medias?

CaseyKane50
10-22-2018, 12:57 PM
Hooray! This is going to fill a pretty big gap between DC and Crystal City. I hope it leads to more Gravelly Point visitors deciding to hop on a bike and take a ride.

Is it okay if I steal these pictures to post on the Friends of the MVT social medias?

Yes, I can also send you the originals.

Drewdane
10-25-2018, 09:56 AM
Yeah the whining on FB was hilarious.

Ooh! What specific FB page?

baiskeli
10-25-2018, 01:42 PM
Speaking of Gravelly Point, it seems the Park Service finally, after however many decades, figured out that it shouldn't face portapotties set right on the trail with their doors opening onto the trail.

No maybe they can build permanent bathrooms instead.

LeprosyStudyGroup
10-25-2018, 03:29 PM
Speaking of Gravelly Point, it seems the Park Service finally, after however many decades, figured out that it shouldn't face portapotties set right on the trail with their doors opening onto the trail..

Yeah great, now that the back sides are set directly on the trail, people walking back towards the parking lot pop right out from behind the corner to get smashed instead.

Yule
12-05-2018, 08:20 PM
Good news!

Gravelly Point Station is finally online.

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Here is a shot I took a few weeks ago when it was in the process of being born:

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bkingva
12-06-2018, 10:08 PM
What a beautiful sight.

Judd
12-06-2018, 10:12 PM
Raced to the station yesterday just after it was installed and went for a ride.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181207/98368e30e82a92d69ecd6394a5feb476.jpg


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