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lordofthemark
03-21-2016, 11:07 AM
I am a bit embarrassed to show what a mtnce newb I am, but embarrassment keeps people from learning, so here goes.

I had a flat over a month ago, someone lent me a tube, I am now trying to fix the flat so I can return the tube (my old tube is a schrader, and the borrowed one a presta, so they are not interchangeable) and because I need to learn to do this.

I managed to find the puncture, and there were two holes near each other (which I guess means it was a pinch flat?)

I used the little roughening tool that I found in my bike room toolkit, some glue (from my own flat fixing kit, some swag I got on BTWD I think) and the little patches. I think I did one of the patches too quickly (and had glue on my fingers and was generally messy about it) and didn't quite get it down smoothly on the tube surface - anyway, when I came back to look at the tube a day later (I did not put the tube in the tire yet) it had lost most of the air I had filled the tube with. This weekend I tried again, putting a third patch on top of the patch that seemed to have been put down wrong, filled the tire again, and rode off (on the borrowed presta tube - I wanted to make sure the fix was holding) When I came back a few hours later, the tube had lost the air again.

So question 1 - does this show I patched improperly - or is there something about inner tubes that they will not hold air if outside a bike tire? (Remember there is NO SUCH THING AS A DUMB QUESTION).

If the latter, I guess I should fill the tire, and then put it in the tire right away.

If the former, do I need to remove the patches I have put on and start from scratch?

Your assistance is appreciated.

FFX_Hinterlands
03-21-2016, 11:16 AM
There are two types of patches. One that have the glue and others that are self-stick. The self stick ones peel off like a sticker, I think. The better ones are patches with glue. It's actually not glue, it causes a vulcanization reaction with the tire. Follow the instructions on the tube, but typically you sand, put glue around the hole where the patch would go (OK to go bigger than the patch), then let it dry for 20 minutes so that the glue can react with the rubber on the tire. Then you put on the patch to the glue after waiting. If you mess up you gotta peel off the patch and start with a new patch. I don't think the patch will react to the glue the same way so you can't put another one on top.
Easier to just replace the tire or keep the patched one as a spare if it holds air.

See this awesome post (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/flats.html) (section on patching).

jabberwocky
03-21-2016, 11:20 AM
Tubes should hold air outside a bike tire. It sounds like the patch didn't take. Adding patches to a failed one generally isn't going to make things better. :p IMO you should just stop messing with the tube and replace it.

Over the years, I've generally gotten past patching tubes. This is especially true of pinch flats, which tend to leave a slice rather than a hole. IME patches aren't as good at dealing with them. In my mind, its just not worth the trouble of dealing with a failed tube. I keep a stock of tubes on hand and if I get a flat I swap the tube and call it a day.

I do keep patches in my seat bag for in-field repairs (if I go through my one spare tube then I can start patching, and I've given them away to people I've come across who left home unprepared. My favorite are the Park glueless patches. They are basically stickers and hold up well enough and are very easy to apply.

Emm
03-21-2016, 11:21 AM
If the former, do I need to remove the patches I have put on and start from scratch?


At this stage, just spend the $7 and get a new tube, and buy 1-2 spares while you're there. I'd be cautious about re-patching the same spot twice. You may roughen up the area too much, and cause a weak spot. Or when you try to remove the first patch you may tear the tube more, or the new patch wont cover the weak part of the old patch--lots of variables for what could go wrong when super glue and sandpaper is involved. I recommend keeping 1-2 spare tubes with you or at home for things like this.

When you install the new tube, put a tiny bit of air in it (just enough to give it shape), put it into the wheel/tire, seal it up, confirming it's not pinched anywhere, and then fully inflate. Lots of utube videos are out there to show you how to do this. Then ride around your block a few times to make sure it's good to go and it's all set up properly.

Also, depending on how bad the gouge in your tire is, I've sealed the inside of the tires with patches before to prevent new objects from getting into the same spot (someone on here recommended it to me). For someone as flat-prone as me, it's a life saver :). Probably not relevant if you got a pinch flat, but for other types it's great.

Crickey7
03-21-2016, 11:27 AM
Pinch flats repairs tend to fail again, usually just after you have passed the point of no return on your ride.

jabberwocky
03-21-2016, 11:43 AM
$7

If you plan ahead, tubes can be had much cheaper than this too. Lots of online shops carry generic (almost always rebranded QBP) tubes for pretty cheap. The last few batches I bought came from Price Point. Their house brand tubes (http://www.pricepoint.com/Brand/Price-Point/Price-Point-Tube.axd) are about 2 bucks apiece. I just get 10-20 at a time and don't worry about tubes for a few years.

ShawnoftheDread
03-21-2016, 11:51 AM
In addition to what others said above, I think that any "borrowed" tube should be replaced with a new one.

Vicegrip
03-21-2016, 11:51 AM
Agree ^. New tube in box handed back with a "Thank you!" If the loaned tube is as you say not the right one but still good you give that one back too.

Never had a glue on patch fail. Forgot to replace a peel and stick patch and it made a super slow leak after a month or so. I carry a good tube a mini pump and patches.

Agree to dispose of a tube that has a bad patch. Life is short don't spend it road side levering a tire off a rim.

A few things that I think are key to a good patch. Scuff off the shine of the tube. Use enough glue that your finger slides around and leaves a smooth even coating that is larger than the patch. Let the glue dry before sticking the patch on. I fan the glue for a min or two until the glue looses it gloss and is no sticky to the touch Test at an edge if you feel the need to. Don't touch the dried glue or contact side of the patch Press it on evenly and make sure the edges are pressed tight.

Steve O
03-21-2016, 12:13 PM
Replacing the tube is generally going to be less frustrating...unless you didn't get rid of the little thorn in your tire. Then it's more frustrating.

I generally will patch the tube later when I can do it well and use that tube as a spare. Seems less wasteful than throwing away a perfectly good tube that just has a tiny hole in it. A well-applied glue patch will last longer than the tube.

lordofthemark
03-21-2016, 12:32 PM
Just to clarify the flat happened at the end of a Port City ride, and I bought the person who gave the tube a beer. I am not that big a cheapskate.

Also - when ordering an extra presta tube, can I assume the same size tube as my schrader tube? I would rather not remove the presta tube till I possess the new schrader tube.

consularrider
03-21-2016, 04:25 PM
Just to clarify the flat happened at the end of a Port City ride, and I bought the person who gave the tube a beer. I am not that big a cheapskate.

Also - when ordering an extra presta tube, can I assume the same size tube as my schrader tube? I would rather not remove the presta tube till I possess the new schrader tube.

Couple of observations on presta tube and a question. What type of bike was the other cyclist riding, a hybrid like yours? If so, I would expect the tire/tube is a 700 and between a 32 and a 35. Funny thing, a lot of presta 700 tubes are marked either 28-32 or 35-43. Specialized has a 700 tube labeled 28 - 38. Is there really any significant difference, I have no clue. The other thing on presta that is different from schraeder is that there are different valve stem lengths.

Vicegrip
03-21-2016, 05:46 PM
Not a matter of being cheap and I hope you did not think I was insinuating such. A tube in hand is at times worth far more than one in the store. Someone handed you a tube from his/her pocket. It got there because he/she thought to go to the store and buy it and then put it in a jersey pocket for just such a time.

My personal thinking is if I offer out a tube or a hand for a few min fixing something roadside I prefer we simply carry on and you pay it forward if you wish. If I borrow something like a tube I give a new one back.
If you want/need to return the favor directly replace in kind to make whole. As with all things human variables are in play and "In kind" for some is a beer or 2 and the knowledge that on some other day you know you will return the favor in kind or pay forward and for a few, years of being reminded of the time they "saved your life" ;)

Sunyata
03-22-2016, 07:33 AM
It was my tube, and I agree with Vicegrip, just carry a spare (or the presta tube I gave you) and pay it forward to the next person you come upon that has a flat. No replacement in my hand is necessary, but thanks for offering. :o

As for patching, I only patch as a last ditch effort trail/roadside. I have seen too many patched tires fail several miles from civilization (my boyfriend is a HUGE fan of patching tires over and over and over again and often carries spares with multiple patches that also fail...). Tubes are cheap and life is too short to waste time patching them. :cool:

lordofthemark
03-22-2016, 08:37 AM
It was my tube, and I agree with Vicegrip, just carry a spare (or the presta tube I gave you) and pay it forward to the next person you come upon that has a flat. No replacement in my hand is necessary, but thanks for offering. :o

As for patching, I only patch as a last ditch effort trail/roadside. I have seen too many patched tires fail several miles from civilization (my boyfriend is a HUGE fan of patching tires over and over and over again and often carries spares with multiple patches that also fail...). Tubes are cheap and life is too short to waste time patching them. :cool:

You are most gracious. I will carry the presta tube to give away to whoever needs it - and will gladly buy you a beer at the FS closing happy hour :)

peterw_diy
03-22-2016, 11:44 AM
Y'all use your fingers to spread the fluid? Ick. I use the fluid tube mouth. I carry a spare and patches. Use the spare first, patch if needed. Use a twist tie to mark the puncture location on the damaged tube. Collect punctured tubes at home, patch them all when I have 3 or 4, as I have bad luck with fluid drying in the tube after first use. Use your oldest patch kit as fluid will dry after a number of years even in an unopened tube.

And the most important thing is eliminating the source -- remove the thorn, fix the rim strip, inflate to higher pressure, whatever is needed to prevent recurrence.

lordofthemark
05-18-2016, 10:09 AM
Oops - I did not know about rim strips, rim tape.

Had a flat (front wheel) on the 4MRT on the way home last night - did not have right tools (I had taken the the multitool that CCBID gave out, but passed on the flat kit - silly me) And I had the CO2 set, but no pump, and I usually need multiple pumps to get the presta tube (the one I had with me) into the tire, so I decided to walk the bike to a bus stop, take that home, and fix it in the well equipped bike room.

When I took the flat tube (IE the old schrader tube) out, it was stuck to some black tape thingie - I just pulled it off, with I guess, some of the tape thingie. Replaced with the presta tube, figured I was good to go.

This AM rode to CC again, dragging, but I always have trouble completely filling the presta tube at my building bike room, using an adapter. With CaseyKane's help I completely filled the presta tube there, and again thought I was good to go. When I left I was still dragging - well when I replace the wheel I sometimes screw up the brake, and maybe that was it? Figured I would deal with that later. Then as I was approaching the Jefferson the wheel went flat again. Walked/bussed my way to work.

I was figuring either I had put the presta tube in the wrong way and got a pinch flat, or there is a wire or something in the tire causing a repeat flat. But I guess it could be a spoke flat (is that a thing?) from damaging the rim tape?

My inclination was to walk the bike to one of the shops on 8th Street SE and let them take a look but QueenoftheMark wants to help out and also have dinner with me, so the plan now is for her to drive me and the bike (I will need to remove the front wheel anyway) to Bikenetics tonight.

The tire BTW is original to the bike (the one I replaced already was the rear wheel) so I may need a new tire, not sure.

hozn
05-19-2016, 02:36 AM
If you removed the rim strip then it is certainly inevitable that you would flat due to tube being cut by the spoke holes, yeah.

If you did not, then probably just failed to remove the original culprit.

Not sure what you mean, by needing several pumps to install the tube, but you can just blow (i.e. with your mouth) in the tube to give it a little volume/shape initially for install if you are in situation where you only have co2.

lordofthemark
05-19-2016, 07:50 AM
Turned out it was a piece of glass that had gone through the tire. Since the tire was balding, I replaced it as well as the tube. The presta tube has been paid forward (Helen said they give stuff like that to bikes for the world) and I also have my old schrader tube at home, that I will attempt to patch SLOWLY and CAREFULLY when I get the chance.

TwoWheelsDC
05-19-2016, 08:04 AM
in situation where you only have co2.

The solution to this, of course, is to just get a frame-mounted mini pump. They weigh and take up about the same amount of room as CO2 and you're only limited by your arms' pumping endurance. I went with CO2 when I was noob and just went with what the bike shop gave me, but now I don't really understand why people waste their time with it. I'm sure many have made some sort of cost/benefit calculation with it...I guess they just view that equation differently than me.

hozn
05-19-2016, 09:51 AM
but now I don't really understand why people waste their time with it.

I ride with a pump in jersey pocket (or my backpack) and co2 in saddle bag. I use co2 if I am on a group ride and people are waiting for me to fix my flat. It obviously saves time. Otherwise I just use a pump and save the co2.

Definitely agree that riding with co2 only is foolish. As I think is riding without patches in addition to the spare tube(s).

Amalitza
05-19-2016, 10:05 AM
The solution to this, of course, is to just get a frame-mounted mini pump. They weigh and take up about the same amount of room as CO2 and you're only limited by your arms' pumping endurance. I went with CO2 when I was noob and just went with what the bike shop gave me, but now I don't really understand why people waste their time with it. I'm sure many have made some sort of cost/benefit calculation with it...I guess they just view that equation differently than me.

Also, the variables in our equations probably have different values. :o


yes, yes, I need to go pick up some barbells or milk jugs or something a bunch of times

vern
05-19-2016, 10:52 AM
In 9th grade we had to give a "demonstration speech". I chose to give my speech/demonstration on how to fix a flat tire on a bike. It's a good life skill.

lordofthemark
05-19-2016, 11:00 AM
I kind of feel it makes sense to first make sure I really can do a competent patch, before loading up on stuff to carry around to do patches in the field.

mstone
05-19-2016, 11:07 AM
I kind of feel it makes sense to first make sure I really can do a competent patch, before loading up on stuff to carry around to do patches in the field.

The proper approach is to get a flat on a group ride, so everyone can offer a critique of your procedure.

Amalitza
05-19-2016, 11:48 AM
An incompetent patch may still be sufficient to get you home.


...


#totallytheoreticallyspeaking #notlikefromexperienceoranything

bentbike33
05-19-2016, 01:48 PM
Also, the variables in our equations probably have different values. :o


yes, yes, I need to go pick up some barbells or milk jugs or something a bunch of times

Shop for your pump at the LBS and ask to try some out on tires with pressure ratings like the ones you expect to fix. Then you can see if you are strong enough to do it with the selected pump, or need to try a different model. Generally, the skinnier the pump, the less strength you need to get to high pressure, but the more strokes you need to achieve volume. Many manufacturers offer MTB (fatter) and Road (skinnier) versions of pumps. The one I have is on the fat side, but is designed to be braced against the ground like a floor pump so I can put my weight into it to hit 120 psi.

Tim Kelley
05-19-2016, 02:55 PM
so I can put my weight into it to hit 120 psi.

Are you pumping up tubulars?

bentbike33
05-19-2016, 04:00 PM
Are you pumping up tubulars?

No, ISO 571 x 23 clinchers.

Vicegrip
05-19-2016, 07:32 PM
I ride with a pump in jersey pocket (or my backpack) and co2 in saddle bag. I use co2 if I am on a group ride and people are waiting for me to fix my flat. It obviously saves time. Otherwise I just use a pump and save the co2.

Definitely agree that riding with co2 only is foolish. As I think is riding without patches in addition to the spare tube(s).I ride with a small pocket rocket pump, spare tube and patches. Got burned once riding with CO2 only and had to make the "call of shame"
Very good point on the CO2 for group rides that I had not contemplated and plan to add that to group rides.

lordofthemark
07-06-2016, 07:49 AM
I kind of feel it makes sense to first make sure I really can do a competent patch, before loading up on stuff to carry around to do patches in the field.


So, I finally took some time on Monday to go to the bike room and patch the tire. Checked it this AM, and the tube was still filled with air! Evidently I patched it correctly. So now I will have to go back to contemplating what stuff to carry around.

Harry Meatmotor
07-06-2016, 12:56 PM
So, I finally took some time on Monday to go to the bike room and patch the tire. Checked it this AM, and the tube was still filled with air! Evidently I patched it correctly. So now I will have to go back to contemplating what stuff to carry around.

1 x mini pump/frame pump (https://www.amazon.com/Topeak-Road-Morph-Bike-Gauge/dp/B000FI6YOS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467827560&sr=8-1&keywords=topeak+pump)
1 x NEW innertube
1 x self-adhesive patch kit and tire boot (no cold vulcanizing glue!!) (https://www.amazon.com/Lezyne-Essential-Waterproof-Aluminum-Container/dp/B001UIV4JC/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1467827407&sr=8-5)
2 x tire levers (https://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-Carded-Tire-Lever/dp/B00NU928OO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467827508&sr=8-1)
1 x multitool
(https://www.amazon.com/Crank-Brothers-Multi-Bicycle-19-Function/dp/B003YMYX5E/ref=pd_sim_468_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=51GHs9gpxOL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR158%2C160_&refRID=H2NZ3ESPA2457P2M21MY)

Don't skimp. Leave the patched tubes at home or for emergencies only.

huskerdont
07-06-2016, 01:13 PM
I just bought that Topeak Road Morph pump (in the H. Meatmotor post) as a gift, and I'm a bit envious. It looks pretty sweet. I bought a Crank Bros Sterling LG Hand Pump with gauge for myself, which takes up a little less room in my pack and mounts easily should I chose to do so. I used it this weekend and it works well. Really love having a pump with a gauge that goes to 100 (which for me is good enough for roadside repair--the Topeak goes much higher though, and therein lies the envy.)

mello yello
07-06-2016, 02:57 PM
I just bought that Topeak Road Morph pump (in the H. Meatmotor post) as a gift, and I'm a bit envious. It looks pretty sweet.

I've had two of the road morph pumps, and they're generally excellent. However, my last one didn't quite fit into my trunk bag, and the water bottle attachment was inoperable, and I started putting in in my trunk bag and zipping around it... needless to say, I lost it on my commute a few months ago. Now I have a Nashbar pump that fits in my bag... so, regardless of how nice the pump is, it's only to the degree that it's practical to carry it with you.

Also, I found the other day that once one opens the tube of glue for patching, it should be checked periodically. I got out my patch kit to help someone fix their flat, only to find my glue had dried into a somewhat moist paste. Needless to say the patch didn't hold and I gave the fellow my spare presta tube (his was a schraeder valve). The next week I found that my front wheel had developed a flat, after more than a year, and that my previous patch was still good. I'm debating storing the tube with the hole unpatched until I have one or two more (this may take years) so I use a whole tube of glue in one session.

KLizotte
07-06-2016, 03:01 PM
I've always been concerned about putting a pump in my jersey pocket due to potential injury that may occur if I'm in an accident (via landing on it). Anyone have any real world experience in this matter?

hozn
07-06-2016, 03:05 PM
I've scratched up a pump by falling on it (more than once, I fear), but it's hard to imagine a small pump like the Lezyne pumps being able to really jab into one's back. That pump really has no edges or anything sharp on it. Of course, if the jersey or pocket is very loose and the pump isn't being held against the back, I guess this could be more likely. This certainly isn't something I'm worried about, though. I will say that I have lost a pump by riding in the woods with it. (If anyone found a silver & black Lezyne at Wakefield, that was probably mine -- but you can keep it, it's a great little pump.) I ordered my replacement pump in a more visible blue so that I'd see it in the leaves.

mstone
07-07-2016, 06:45 AM
Yes, the patch glue is a consumable. It'll last forever unopened, but not long after. (I recently used one that said made in West Germany...)

Harry Meatmotor
07-07-2016, 07:47 AM
Honestly, why does it seem that everyone around here insists on using cold vulcanizing patch kits? Glueless/self-adhesive patches work about a brazillion times better. Do yourself a favor and ditch that patch kit you bought from The Bicycle Exchange in 1989. It's been useless for at least a decade now!

And people, patching a tube is not a permanent fix, especially if you're patching the tube and then letting it sit uninflated. The pressure between the inflated innertube and the inside of the tire carcass helps keep the patch in place. Relying on cold vulcanizing glue to keep the patch in place while the tube sits in your garden tool shed or in your seatbag will typically end in disappointment, frustration, and potentially miles of walking.

huskerdont
07-07-2016, 07:53 AM
I've always been concerned about putting a pump in my jersey pocket due to potential injury that may occur if I'm in an accident (via landing on it). Anyone have any real world experience in this matter?

I usually mountain bike with a pump in my jersey pocket or stuffed in the back of my shorts, and I've fallen on it before. It hurts a bit more than just falling, but there was no real injury. I suppose if you hit it just right you could get the pump to break skin, but I can could do that anyway without the pump.

bentbike33
07-07-2016, 07:58 AM
Honestly, why does it seem that everyone around here insists on using cold vulcanizing patch kits?

Probably the little buzz you get from the fumes.

Harry Meatmotor
07-07-2016, 08:29 AM
I usually mountain bike with a pump in my jersey pocket or stuffed in the back of my shorts, and I've fallen on it before. It hurts a bit more than just falling, but there was no real injury. I suppose if you hit it just right you could get the pump to break skin, but I can could do that anyway without the pump.

adding to the aside, I've witnessed more ancillary injuries from CO2 cartridges and house keys than from mini pumps stuffed into jersey pockets. House keys are pokey!!!!

Steve O
07-07-2016, 08:52 AM
Honestly, why does it seem that everyone around here insists on using cold vulcanizing patch kits? Glueless/self-adhesive patches work about a brazillion times better.

Maybe I'm just old school, but I have found that if I do a good job with a patch and glue, that patch will last forever (so yes, a permanent fix IMO). The glueless ones fail after a while--at least for me. And both because I'm cheap and not a fan of throwing away perfectly good tubes because of one tiny little hole I will continue to use glue.

Vicegrip
07-07-2016, 09:05 AM
Had 2 self stick patches go bad after a while. First was a no name brand so I got some well recommended brand name ones. The brand name one lasted a month before delaminating a bit and leaking. It would not come off clean enough for me to remove it so I chucked the tube. I now carry peel and stick on group rides along with a fresh tube and a CO2. All other rides it is patched but tested tubes glue and a pump

mstone
07-07-2016, 09:10 AM
Maybe I'm just old school, but I have found that if I do a good job with a patch and glue, that patch will last forever (so yes, a permanent fix IMO). The glueless ones fail after a while--at least for me. And both because I'm cheap and not a fan of throwing away perfectly good tubes because of one tiny little hole I will continue to use glue.

Yup, I've never had a self-adhesive patch not fail eventually, usually in a matter of days. The messy patches last forever.

Edit to add: that said, I'll use a self-stick on the ride because trying to use the glue on the side of the road sucks.

huskerdont
07-07-2016, 09:24 AM
I carry self-adhesive patches and a new tube in my saddle bag, but will always use the new tube first. If that one goes too and I have to use a patch, I'll change the tube to a new one when home, then throw away the patched tube. But it's not that common to get two flats as long as you check for glass and thorns in your tire (tempting fate now, of course). Throwing the patched tube away gets rid of any worry about the patch eventually failing. I'm cheap, sure, but not about tubes. They cost little and I don't see any reason to ride around with one that's likely to fail.

Harry Meatmotor
07-07-2016, 09:31 AM
They cost little and I don't see any reason to ride around with one that's likely to fail.

EGGs-Zachary.

But hey, I'm a mechanic. I hate fixing my own bikes. Much more fun to ride them than fix 12 year old innertubes with stinky glue during a marathon tube-patching exercise to save $6.

Now, lets talk butyl versus latex!!! trollololol...

edit: also, to assuage any guilt associated with throwing used/punctured tubes in the trash, many shops have tube recycling programs.

huskerdont
07-07-2016, 09:45 AM
edit: also, to assuage any guilt associated with throwing used/punctured tubes in the trash, many shops have tube recycling programs.

This is not a thing that I knew, but now that I do, I'll check and see which shops near me do this. If I get a flat while commuting, if there's a shop nearby, I'll usually stop off and get a tube to replace the one that was in my bag, so could maybe recycle the old one at the same time.

hozn
07-07-2016, 10:00 AM
edit: also, to assuage any guilt associated with throwing used/punctured tubes in the trash, many shops have tube recycling programs.

I love finding discarded tubes. Free valve stems!

I agree with not using glue on the trailside. The adhesive patches work great for the I-already-used-my-tube trailside repairs, but I don't keep them in long-term.

Actually, since converting to tubeless I don't think I've had a situation where I had to put a tube in. Probably 7k miles now between the two bikes, maybe a bit more. I have ridden on less-than-ideal pressure once or twice. I still carry a tube of course -- and patches. On long rides, I carry two tubes.

chris_s
07-07-2016, 10:10 AM
I used to be a "just put a new tube on" guy until I was forced to use a patch kit without removing the wheel while I was in the Netherlands. Now I'm a convert, especially since the rear wheel on my commuter is tough to get off and both wheels of the Bakfiets are a challenge. Now I'm a "patch the tube while it's still on the wheel" person. I've heard a fair amount of negativity about the durability of the self-stick patches.

huskerdont
07-07-2016, 10:18 AM
I used to be a "just put a new tube on" guy until I was forced to use a patch kit without removing the wheel while I was in the Netherlands. Now I'm a covert, especially since the rear wheel on my commuter is tough to get off and both wheels of the Bakfiets are a challenge. Now I'm a "patch the tube while it's still on the wheel" person. I've heard a fair amount of negativity about the durability of the self-stick patches.

Hadn't thought of that. That could work when I get a flat on my fixie and I have forgotten to bring my full-sized wrench with me. (I have one of those little Crank Bros wrenches that I usually carry, but in all honestly, I think that would only work if I had a rock handy to hit it with. If I don't really tighten the rear wheel down hard, it will slip through the track dropout; in fact, even when hammered down, it will eventually slip some over the course of a few weeks. So, I keep a full-sized wrench in my bag, but don't always remember to take it out of the bag when I ride without it.) So, great idea. I'm learning here.

Steve O
07-07-2016, 10:21 AM
I used to be a "just put a new tube on" guy until I was forced to use a patch kit without removing the wheel while I was in the Netherlands. Now I'm a convert, especially since the rear wheel on my commuter is tough to get off and both wheels of the Bakfiets are a challenge. Now I'm a "patch the tube while it's still on the wheel" person. I've heard a fair amount of negativity about the durability of the self-stick patches.

It's surprising that many people do not know that one can fix a flat without removing the wheel from the bike. Sure, if it's a quick release, NBD. But my toodler bike requires wrenches and the rear has a coaster brake. I'll fix that tube until it has 20 patches, using glue, of course, so they're permanent.

Harry Meatmotor
07-07-2016, 10:25 AM
Hadn't thought of that. That could work when I get a flat on my fixie and I have forgotten to bring my full-sized wrench with me. (I have one of those little Crank Bros wrenches that I usually carry, but in all honestly, I think that would only work if I had a rock handy to hit it with. If I don't really tighten the rear wheel down hard, it will slip through the track dropout; in fact, even when hammered down, it will eventually slip some over the course of a few weeks. So, I keep a full-sized wrench in my bag, but don't always remember to take it out of the bag when I ride without it.) So, great idea. I'm learning here.

Try one of these! (http://surlybikes.com/parts/small_parts/tuggnut)

Steve O
07-07-2016, 10:26 AM
I agree with not using glue on the trailside. The adhesive patches work great for the I-already-used-my-tube trailside repairs, but I don't keep them in long-term.


I agree with this conceptually.
My problem is that I forget that I put the glueless patch on...or I tell myself, "I'll do it Saturday." But then I never do and 10-30 days later I have another flat. So until I get a memory upgrade I'll stick with glue, even on the trailside.

ShawnoftheDread
07-07-2016, 10:30 AM
Try one of these! (http://surlybikes.com/parts/small_parts/tuggnut)

Do you know of anything like this that works on forward facing horizontal drops?

Harry Meatmotor
07-07-2016, 10:42 AM
I agree with this conceptually.
My problem is that I forget that I put the glueless patch on...or I tell myself, "I'll do it Saturday." But then I never do and 10-30 days later I have another flat. So until I get a memory upgrade I'll stick with glue, even on the trailside.

or you could just put a new tube in :confused:

Harry Meatmotor
07-07-2016, 10:47 AM
Do you know of anything like this that works on forward facing horizontal drops?

Somebody's bound to make something that would work for FWD facing dropouts, but I haven't really ever looked for one, either.

Steve O
07-07-2016, 10:49 AM
or you could just put a new tube in :confused:

Again, I agree with this conceptually, but there have been occasions where I have given my tube away on the trail and then forgotten I'd done that, so I ride around with no spare tube for weeks. Or some other boneheaded reason why I either don't have a tube or it's not functional or something else. Do not underestimate the negative effects of aging on one's mental acuity.

Harry Meatmotor
07-07-2016, 10:55 AM
Do not underestimate the negative effects of cold vulcanizing glue fumes on one's mental acuity.

:p :p :p

hozn
07-07-2016, 10:57 AM
It's surprising that many people do not know that one can fix a flat without removing the wheel from the bike. Sure, if it's a quick release, NBD. But my toodler bike requires wrenches and the rear has a coaster brake. I'll fix that tube until it has 20 patches, using glue, of course, so they're permanent.

Yeah, I know that this is possible / that people do this, but that's a good point. My concerns with a tubed-system would be finding the leak, though typically I'd prefer to do that even if I'm just gonna replace the tube (so I can check the tire for the culprit).

Tubeless really does make this a whole lot easier, though: if the leak is small enough that it's hard to find, then you won't have had to stop in the first place. If it's large enough that sealant doesn't work for it, then it'll be really obvious exactly where the leak is and you can just throw in a tube without needing to track down where the intrusion was on the tire -- or use tubeless repair plugs without touching the tire levers (my first choice).

vern
07-07-2016, 11:41 AM
I love finding discarded tubes. Free valve stems!



I will start placing discarded tubes in the weeds in Hunter Mill Valley to give you an occasional thrill.

lordofthemark
07-07-2016, 11:42 AM
Honestly, why does it seem that everyone around here insists on using cold vulcanizing patch kits?



In my case because the patch kits are handed out free as swag. At this point I think I will keep the patched tube at home, and refrain from trying a 'field patch' till I feel more confident about it (and till I keep all the appropriate stuff with me)

hozn
07-07-2016, 11:47 AM
In my case because the patch kits are handed out free as swag. At this point I think I will keep the patched tube at home, and refrain from trying a 'field patch' till I feel more confident about it (and till I keep all the appropriate stuff with me)
Just remember that the small patch kits are basically one-time use (unless you happen to flat again before the glue dries out). The adhesive patches are a lot faster and then you can do the real fixing at home. Or just recycle the tube. Tubes can be had for $2.99, so you can hopefully outfit yourself for a year of cycling for $15. I repair tubes (or did when I used them) since I have a box of patches and a big tub of glue, but I don't think it makes any sort of economic sense.

Steve O
07-07-2016, 11:48 AM
Yeah, I know that this is possible / that people do this, but that's a good point. My concerns with a tubed-system would be finding the leak, though typically I'd prefer to do that even if I'm just gonna replace the tube (so I can check the tire for the culprit).

Tubeless really does make this a whole lot easier, though:

Do they make a tubeless 590mm for 1960's vintage 3-speeds?

huskerdont
07-07-2016, 12:07 PM
Tubeless really does make this a whole lot easier

Sez you. Some of us are not that smart, or perhaps think it sounds like a whole lot of extra work for minimal gain. I think that's the opposite of "easier.":p

/threadjack.

Tim Kelley
07-07-2016, 12:11 PM
Tubes can be had for $2.99, so you can hopefully outfit yourself for a year of cycling for $15.

Where do you get yours? Got any tubes with 80mm stems at that price?

hozn
07-07-2016, 12:12 PM
Do they make a tubeless 590mm for 1960's vintage 3-speeds?

If it's low-pressure (< 45psi), you could just tape the rims & throw sealant in there and see what happens. But if it's road pressures, then this would be ill advised. So the only solution is probably n+1 :)

hozn
07-07-2016, 12:14 PM
Where do you get yours? Got any tubes with 80mm stems at that price?

Last time I needed 60mm valve stems, I added a couple tubes to my order from jenson. http://www.jensonusa.com/Duro-Road-Presta-Valve-Tube ... Those are perfect for tubeless since they're threaded all the way to the top (I am using them in 50mm rims). Sure was cheaper than $14.99 for a set of Stans stems [that would have required another $20 !?! for Stans threaded valve extenders!]. They don't come in 80mm, though, no :-[

lordofthemark
07-07-2016, 12:29 PM
Just remember that the small patch kits are basically one-time use (unless you happen to flat again before the glue dries out). The adhesive patches are a lot faster and then you can do the real fixing at home. Or just recycle the tube. Tubes can be had for $2.99, so you can hopefully outfit yourself for a year of cycling for $15. I repair tubes (or did when I used them) since I have a box of patches and a big tub of glue, but I don't think it makes any sort of economic sense.

I am pretty sure I used the same glue that I used for the failed attempt at a fix in March (described in the OP).

hozn
07-07-2016, 12:31 PM
Sez you. Some of us are not that smart, or perhaps think it sounds like a whole lot of extra work for minimal gain. I think that's the opposite of "easier.":p

That's fair. If you never (or very rarely) flat then I agree it probably isn't worth the hassle. It does lower rolling resistance, etc. but that isn't my primary motivator. The GP4000SII tires with latex tubes feel at least as fast as Schwalbe Pro One tubeless.

Oh, I did forget about flatting out [on tubeless] in the gravel at Poolesville Road Race. I put in a tube for that, since I didn't have any plugs with me (saddle bag in the car) and fixed the tire at home.

huskerdont
07-07-2016, 12:33 PM
Try one of these! (http://surlybikes.com/parts/small_parts/tuggnut)

The Surly site says Bicycle Space may have those tuggnuts. They're a short walk from werk or on the ride home. Looks like it would work a lot better than my idea of inserting a bolt in front of the axle.

huskerdont
07-07-2016, 12:40 PM
That's fair. If you never (or very rarely) flat then I agree it probably isn't worth the hassle. It does lower rolling resistance, etc. but that isn't my primary motivator. The GP4000SII tires with latex tubes feel at least as fast as Schwalbe Pro One tubeless.

Oh, I did forget about flatting out [on tubeless] in the gravel at Poolesville Road Race. I put in a tube for that, since I didn't have any plugs with me (saddle bag in the car) and fixed the tire at home.

Ah, so you *can* put a tube in a tubeless in an emergency. How you get the tire glued back on trailside though I don't even want to think about; or does it still clinch if there's a tube in? (No need to answer that because Google.)

I used to get a lot of flats, especially in Georgetown, but started going with slower, heavier tires with better protection and have now reached an acceptable level of flats. I still wouldn't call it "very rarely" because the sample size isn't large enough yet, but here's hoping.

hozn
07-07-2016, 12:44 PM
Yeah, there is no "glue" with tubeless. Just latex sealant. Technically (usually) optional but kinda required for the self-sealing properties. It's just a regular clincher tire, though, if/when you want to use a tube.

This is completely unrelated to tubular tires, which I definitely think would be way too much hassle .

Harry Meatmotor
07-07-2016, 12:51 PM
Also, for the belt-and-suspenders-types out there (or, if, for example, you've got an internally geared rear hub and don't want to futz with all that jazz during a commute...), just squirt some Stan's sealant (or Effetto Mariposa Caffelatex, or Orange Seal) into your new/unpunctured innertube before inflating it, and get all the puncture-resistance benefits of tubeless without dealing with the potential tire issues, or mess. For Schrader valve tubes you'll need to remove the core, and for presta valve tubes I highly recommend pulling the core, but it's not necessary. Yes, eventually the sealant will dry out, but it should get through at least a full fair-weather (May to October) cycling season just fine. In 12 months you'll probably want to squirt fresh sealant in anyhow.

Steve O
07-07-2016, 02:02 PM
just squirt some .... Effetto Mariposa Caffelatex,

Wasn't this one of the ways you could earn points in Brn's Big Bad Coffee Challenge (http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?9719-Br%FCn%F8-s-Big-Bad-Coffee-Challenge-Pointless-Prize-(-3))?

huskerdont
07-11-2016, 07:35 AM
Yeah, there is no "glue" with tubeless. Just latex sealant. Technically (usually) optional but kinda required for the self-sealing properties. It's just a regular clincher tire, though, if/when you want to use a tube.

This is completely unrelated to tubular tires, which I definitely think would be way too much hassle .

I should have been more precise and said "sealant," which in my casual frame of mind at the time was synonymous with glue. However, now I know better because I've been thinking about it. My Ultegra wheel with Pro4s was flat, so I changed the tube, doing the usual look in the tire for glass and thorns. There was nothing there, but when I pumped the tube up, it immediately blew; however, the tire did not go flat! I was like, hey, if only I had some *sealant* I could ride this bike. Instead, I got out another bike. Pretty sure there's something coming through the rim tape; will pump up the tube to find the hole location when I have time, but I do think I'll stroll down to the LBS and get some sealant in the meantime. I'm nervous about trying it, but I was nervous about a lot of things I tried and then moved to doing all the time.

hozn
07-11-2016, 09:10 AM
Yeah, just note that you need a tubeless-specific tire if you are going to ditch the tube altogether. (You can, of course, add sealant inside a tube too.)

lordofthemark
09-12-2016, 11:05 AM
After my flat on Saturday, I schlepped the bike home (post Mellow Mushroom) and since I was going to be putting the LITs on anyway, decided to do all that at once. I swapped out the tires (a bit harder than changing a tube, but not that much) and replaced the blown tube with an old repaired tube I had kept. The bad tube has a biggish hole right near the valve. Focusing on getting the new tires on, I did not remember to note where on the old tires the hole had happened. Or even which tire was which. I guess I now need to go over the old tires to see if there is something that punctured them. I am also guessing it is probably not worth repairing this blown tube.

mello yello
09-12-2016, 11:28 AM
Was the hole on the inside or outside of the tire? I just had two tubes rupture there... on the inside, at apparent weak spots in the rubber material. It had nothing to do with the tire, or the perfectly smooth rim-strip. I also had trouble getting my patches to hold in that particular location.

Of note, if you want to add sealant inside the tube on a Presta-valved tube, you need to cut it open, add the slime, and then patch it. I'm not comfortable enough to do that. A schrader you can take the valve out with the attachment on a can of slime.
Edit: maybe this was just how my old scout leaders did it back in the 90's... I'm reading some of the previous posts and it looks like this is not true. You learn something new every day.

bentbike33
09-12-2016, 11:35 AM
Of note, if you want to add sealant inside the tube on a Presta-valved tube, you need to cut it open, add the slime, and then patch it.

Some presta tubes now have removable valve cores. Stan's NoTubes makes a tool for that, or you could use a small adjustable wrench.

hozn
09-12-2016, 11:36 AM
Some presta tubes have removable valve cores, which should allow you to inject sealant. (Most don't, though.)

huskerdont
09-12-2016, 11:50 AM
As Mellow Yellow (quite rightly) implies, tubes that flat right by the valve stem might not have flatted from foreign object debris. I've had a few go there over the years. Sometimes it's a weak spot in material, and sometimes it's just from extra stress in that area. Still worth it to inspect the tires though, even if you can no longer line up the tube to see where on the tire the hole was.

bentbike33
09-12-2016, 02:16 PM
In my experience...


... tubes that flat right by the valve stem ...

... were due to the advanced age of the tube, or tightening the little round presta valve-stem nut too much. Best to be a weight-weenie and recycle those things.